Wow! What a truly powerful article, it had me captivated - I can completely empathise with the author. And I feel her internal disharmony in the whole notion of consumption...full stop.

I remember when I switched to a vegan diet, I asked the question "why am I doing this?". I felt deep compassion for all living creatures and couldn't for a moment contemplate that anything I might do would harm another.

I remember I was asking that question just as I was about to chop a tomato. I stopped and reflected that the tomato was infused with conscious life force too, even though in itself it wasn't sentient. And do you know what happened? At that precise moment, the tomato rolled off the chopping board!

What's also vital to me, is not to become identified with one practice or another. Identification with the physical sucks up consciousness and limits our limitlessness. I get the sense that the author of the article is suffering a degree of internal turmoil about 'being' vegan. As she quite rightly points out, consumption of anything is the destruction of something.

The key is to remember that we are all one and every act requires energetic exchange, there is receiving and giving. For me now, there are two key questions to answer when I consume anything...

1. Is there energetic balance in what I'm doing?
2. Is what I'm doing truly on my path?

My path appears quite strongly to be heading towards a higher vibration. This would be entirely natural considering the whole universe is moving that way! Hence anything I do is likely only to be authentic if ultimately it is raising my vibration.

This then is the key reason I eat a vegan diet or more accurately, what I know as a 'conscious diet'. It is one that respects all life and aligns with the flow to higher energetic harmony.

If anyone truly feels the urge to open up their spiritual path, conscious eating is certainly a very powerful booster and lack of respect for it, a very powerful limitation.

Thanks for sharing such a wonderful article

Chris

Hi Chris

This is a fascinating subject. I became vegetarian last August after an Openhand retreat. A meat eater for over 50 years, I have to admit I still sometimes miss the taste! The decision, though, was a conscious one and I feel content that the choice was right and honest to my beliefs.

The picture for me, however, is not entirely clear. As you say in your article, there is life in all healthy foods because it is the nature of life to feed on life whether it be animal, plant, fruit or vegetable. So by being vegetarian or vegan are we saying we choose not to take life from sentient creatures? If so,then how do we define sentience? The dictionary says "capable of perception or feeling". However, one definition of feeling is the ability to experience physical sensations. Surely all living organisms respond to physical sensations such as heat, light etc so one could say that all life forms have some degree of sentience.

So is the line drawn between those life forms who suffer as a result of having their life essence taken from them? Even this is a grey area for me. You have commented before that suffering comes from within. We can experience physical or emotional pain but we can choose whether to suffer from it or not. The suggestion here is that suffering requires a level of intellectual reasoning as in I would prefer not to be experiencing this particular sensation. Again, as humans we may feel able to decide at what intellectual level that discernment can take place.

I've heard some people say the fox "enjoys" being hunted - I doubt it. Some say fish don't feel pain because they are "cold blooded".

There seems to be no easy answer. As you say, it is important to respect all life forms. I also feel we should honour any life form that helps us to sustain our own life.

In my heart I believe the real answer is to ascend to a level of consciousness where the whole concept of life feeding on life becomes superfluous. Only then we will have attained the harmonious coexistence I truly yearn for.

clive

I feel deeply your honesty Clive and yearning to find energetic harmony with all life.

When I woke up, this feeling was paramount inside of me too. In surrendering to my soul, I was taken on an energetic journey. I'd made this commitment to always come from my soul. I had no inkling of where it would take me.

Firstly, it was suddenly clear to me, that I simply could not eat meat. There was no debate about it for me. The way we treat creatures in our food chain is simply abominable. I would rather starve than be in any way responsible for that injustice.

Following that, I was caused to cut out dairy foods, caffeine, alcohol and then wheat. This was happening over several months. With each 'sacrifice', I noticed strongly how my energetic vibration was rising and interconnectivity will all life increasing. I had boundless vitality and lightness.

One of the most difficult was giving up sugar, but it too had an amazingly uplifting impact. Despite all of this, I simply wasn't in any way prepared for the impact going raw would have. Over night, the amount of sleep I required reduced from eight hours to just four. I was full of boundless energy. My consciousness was so expanded, I could literally feel the consciousness in plants and trees. It became a living dialogue.

But my journey didn't end there. I was spurred on by the amazing lightness of being. I next became a fruitarian and then eating just one meal a day. Finally, for a short period, I became a breatharian, supplanting eating altogether with breathing meditation. And do you know what? When I did, I actually put on weight! And there was simply no doubt anymore in our at-one-ment with all life. I had become everything/nothing.

Following this exploration, I was guided back to a balanced vegan diet with lots of raw food. I found it difficult to sustain the vibration required for breatharianism whilst living in such a dense environment as our society - especially with the role I have to perform.

The energetic journey which spirit guided me on, left me in no uncertain terms about the importance of eating consciously. You could call it self interest. But of course this is Higher Self interest, one which has the interest of all life at heart!

Chris

Clive wrote:

So is the line drawn between those life forms who suffer as a result of having their life essence taken from them? Even this is a grey area for me. You have commented before that suffering comes from within. We can experience physical or emotional pain but we can choose whether to suffer from it or not. The suggestion here is that suffering requires a level of intellectual reasoning as in I would prefer not to be experiencing this particular sensation. Again, as humans we may feel able to decide at what intellectual level that discernment can take place.

Hi Clive and all,

I agree that drawing the line when it comes to compassionate eating is very difficult in a world configured to encourage the opposite. We can always go deeper.

My movement toward sentient living stems from the experiential realisation that on a soul level we are all untited. What happens to another, happens to us all, on a level. If another experiences pain, for me it is not as simple as whether I chose to suffer from that or not. I still feel it. On a soul level we are not invited to deny it. The difference is whether we 'own it' or 'become identified with it' or not. Compassion is not about becoming lost in the suffering. It's about finding right action within it. We are always guided as how to be with a given set of circumstances.

During my spiritual awakening I experienced the boundaries between sentient life forms fall away entirely. It was a 'place' of ultimate liberation, beyond suffering, where the pure divine aspect of us all united. At this level there is no separation. In 're-infusing' back into the everyday experience of the world, I could never forget this again. It meant that I then felt the pain and suffering of 'the world' at exceedingly high levels, but I ALSO felt that which was beyond it all. For a little while it was almost impossible to function. I experienced a sensory overload as the unfortunate state in which the world is in today became immediately apparent. It is no wonder that the vast majority of people are in a slumber of denial and desensitivity. Modern culture moves us so far away from our divine inheritance that it's shocking.

Actions performed in the society I knew meant that every which way I turned, every action I performed would inevitably be causing suffering some where down the chain of action! I did the only thing I could. I started with whatever was under my nose, whatever I consumed directly. For a start I could no longer eat animal products at all. In touching milk, I felt the torturous life of the cow that lived in concentration camp like conditions to produce the milk. I felt the pain of a mother having a baby calf ripped away from it. There was no escape from reality. I could no longer find it in my heart to be a part of that system. As a natural consequence I embraked upon a journey of conscious eating that raised my vibration and catalysed my spiritual evolution.

I feel that I can always go deeper. When it comes to discernment, I have learnt to never ignore what the heart is telling us.

With Love
Trinity

Thanks for that insight, Trinity.

I agree completely with your views on compassionate living - I believe that the ability to show compassion is one of the great human gifts that separates us from other creatures. I have always been able to put myself in the position of the one suffering even if it's "only" a fly trapped in a spider's web. It may well be a fact of life that life feeds on life but the more you empathise, the more difficult it can seem to live in a world where suffering is par for the course.

My heart tells me that I cannot change the system. I can only live out this life in truth to my own feelings and beliefs - and keep rescuing worms from puddles!

clive x

ps I loved Avatar - agonisingly beautiful

And thank you too for sharing Clive.

Chris said: I remember when I switched to a vegan diet, I asked the question "why am I doing this?". I felt deep compassion for all living creatures and couldn't for a moment contemplate that anything I might do would harm another.

I remember I was asking that question just as I was about to chop a tomato. I stopped and reflected that the tomato was infused with conscious life force too, even though in itself it wasn't sentient. And do you know what happened? At that precise moment, the tomato rolled off the chopping board!"

That's exactly what I felt! I can look into the eyes of cows and other animals and don't have a conscience.

A funny story - two weeks ago I was trying to get the stone out of an avocado. I'd usually just do it carefully, cutting the avo in half and scooping out the stone with a spoon. For some reason that day I was just not awake and entertained a maverick-stupid thought: get a really sharp knife and stab hard at the stone, spearing it, then it'll lift out. So, I did this, and speared not only the avo but the knife went right through my hand, too! I laugh about this .. and your comment about the tomato rolling off onto the floor... the avo needed gentle, reverent treatment, and what did I do? Stabbed it!!
I also feel this way when I see a garden fork 'stabbed' into the garden; I don't do this. Even a spade is a violent tool if used unconsciously (I usually use a fork, but slide the tines in mindfully, aware that I am in a way, puncturing the earth.)
So the moral is: love your veggies - they have feelings too!

heavensent

What's fantastic heavensent is that you're actually doing these things because you feel them. This is exactly how The Law of Attraction works. The tomato rolled off the chopping board because at a higher level I was co-creating that event (unconsciously). Likewise, at the higher level you co-created the event with the Avocado. Now I'm not saying tomatoes and Avocados are sentient! But all life has a guiding consciousness which is very evolved - what we might call a "Deva". It is with this consciousness that we're creating such 'mirroring' opportunities

Ive never had issues expressing my feelings AT ALL, but sometimes others seem to think its not so good to be so open, Anyway Im seeing the layers peeling away and I know the process is working on me, by going inward and being honest actions and habits slowly align, an internalness slowly prevails...THANK YOU ... So let me ask...Im sitting quietly I feel/hear my heartbeat, I see a horizontal line in the distance sorta feels like a wave moving towards me, it gets to me and I feel this yellowish plastic like coating over me and the entire room, it creates a pressure and its alot harder to breath, I think, is this what the world really looks like? Then I dont like the feeling and I get up and jog it away... I stumbled across a Krishnamurti book in 4th grade that I read over and over... I know everything you say my whole life, I dont know a thing about multi-world dimensions, but this along with these little dot clusters Ive seen my whole life are GETTING MY ATTENTION... Im not looking for a direct answer, as much as just wondering WHAT THE HECK...
anyone have a small mental liferaft..? hahaha
-BillyBoy

Hi All,

I feel particularly pulled to respond due to a recent experience of mine which I can say I was not expecting.

My food choices have changed a lot over the years as a response to various mirrors held up. First I gave up cows milk when I lived near a farm and heard the piteous bellowing of a herd of cows whose calves had been removed from them, it went on for four days and was unmistakeable as animals crying. the first occasion I’d ever really thought about how milk got to my kitchen table. But it wasn’t a complete shift away from dairy, I still had butter and cheese sometimes, and an occasional ice cream at the seaside - I didn’t even know what a vegan was back then, I’d never met one. What happened was just my natural expression of horror at what cows went through to put milk on my table, whether it was not completely thought through or whether it was just the sum total of what I felt able to do, or a mixture of both it probably reduced my dairy intake by at least 80% for well over 10 years. I can’t help feeling there’s a place for people reducing their consumption, even if they don’t feel ready or able to give up something completely. It would help us all move towards a more equitable system of living harmoniously with animals and not breeding them for being food machines.

Then in more recent years as part of my conscious journey towards purification of the physical body, I gave up dairy entirely and meat and sugar and alcohol and caffeine. But, initially, I “allowed” myself fish as I couldn’t imagine how I was ever going to have a meal out with most of the people I knew. This may sound like a cop out, but it was what I felt I could do at that time, in feeling my way through such big lifestyle changes. Then one day I was given some fish which had been caught by a neighbour. I remarked on how large the trout was, and he said “You should have seen the one that got away, it broke an eight and a half pound line.” I ate the fish and all the while thought of “the one that got away”, the magnificent creature swimming around for the rest of it’s life with a hook in its mouth, maybe a lead weight as well, all so that I could eat the one on my plate. I knew then, overwhelmingly, that I didn’t want any sentient creature to have to suffer to feed me, it simply wasn’t necessary. So I stopped eating fish and I pretty much stopped eating out, unless I was able to know there was a suitable menu choice.

Since then (4-5 years) I’ve eaten a predominantly vegan wholefood diet, with the inclusion of some organic free range eggs. I consider this to have been a fundamental catalyst to experiencing a clearly accelerated spiritual journey.

Then just a few weeks ago, a new experience. I found myself deeply yearning...... for chicken curry. This was very strange, as I’ve sometimes sat at the dinner table with meat eaters in recent years and never wanted anything they were eating. I watched the feeling building over a period of days and was wondering if it related to a lack of vitamin B12. It was getting stronger and I was wondering what to do about it, maybe I’d go and look for some organic chicken from a free range farm. While I was contemplating it, I got an overwhelming, “I just want chicken curry and I want it now” feeling, so I went to a supermarket and got an oven ready meal. All the while thinking I can’t believe I’m doing this, goodness knows where these poor creatures have been shipped in from, what drugs and hormones they’ve been given and what kind of life they’ve led. I heated up the curry and I ate it. Before I ate it, I gave heartfelt thanks, and I saw a golden light rise up like a flash over an expansive area, and I knew I was connecting with all chickens everywhere living in servitude. As I ate the curry my base chakra started vibrating, like a contented cat makes a loud purring noise, and I knew something essential to me, for my body at that time had been satisfied. I felt more connected to my body and to the earth.

A week or two later, I again felt a need for meat and was passing a large pub known for its carverys. I went in, and feeling very strange, did not ask for the vegetarian option. I got to the serving area not knowing what would happen next and looked at the array of roast joints. I had a clear feeling I wasn’t interested in anything except turkey. I took my plate of food and sat down alone and gave deep thanks. As I put the first forkful in my mouth an explosion of pleasure from the beingness of the turkey filled my entire beingness, we were one, and the turkey was expressing great joy at being eaten, we were communing as we could never have otherwise communed, merged into glorious oneness. I, too, was overcome with joy and celebration. I went on to experience the most sacred meal I’d ever had, in very ordinary, you could say “non spiritual” surroundings with other diners having no idea what was happening for me.

In that moment I was also knowing that I was doing the most ordinary thing on earth, animals eat each other, fact, that’s how it works, and some part of me still needs to sometimes eat meat. I do not have to feel its wrong. I knew too, beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter what is done to these creatures, they still retain the essence of their beingness, and there was I soaring on the wings of “bird essence” that this turkey was giving me and celebrating with me in the sharing of it. I came to realise that this soaring feeling is in itself a raising of my vibration, something an earthy type like me may be uplifted by, where it may not be necessary for my more ethereal friends.

I find it really moving just to recall the experience. I feel its possible, maybe even probable that I may eat some bird flesh again. Maybe it will be another 4-5 years, maybe it will be next week, I don’t know. What I do know is that if I do, I am like a new person experiencing a sacred act of oneness, not the blind carnivore I was for 40 years. The previous choices I made to realign my diet helped me get to a place where I could have that new experience. I know too, that if I meat again, I wouldn’t necessarily choose a bird from an organic farm. Constant surprises when we continually ask what feels right in the moment! No, I don’t want to support a way of farming that I feel is wrong, but as long as factory farming happens, these creatures have no choice what they ingest, and frankly, if they have to endure it, I would find a sense of solidarity in sharing my body with them and would not be able to shun them. Bless them all, in deepest, deepest, gratitude for their lives and teachings.

Lesley

Thank you for the sharing Lesley. It's interesting to hear different perspectives. We are all so unique Whatever we are drawn to do has a deeper meaning depending on what we need to experience at the time.

I do feel that yes, other animals kill each other and eat one another - BUT they have the instinct to kill along with teeth designed to rip through skin and flesh (unlike human beings). We are the only mammal in the world that needs to cook it's flesh in order to make it palatable. To me that is a sign of the times.

These are my personal feelings and observations and in no way saying what is wrong or right.

Some interesting food for thought.

Trinity
x

Your experience Lesley sounds deeply spiritual and profoundly connected - one of those "big sequence events" you speak of in "5 Gateways".

Personally I think the Human Race is labouring under the delusion that we are just ONE race, when I feel we are not. I remember waking up, and from that very time, could not bring myself to eat meat again. The very idea repulsed me (and still does). Quite apart from that, in general, I don't think we're configured to eat meat - hence the build up of mucoid plaque that takes place in the colon after eating meat for some time.

But then no one could possibly deny your experience - and others have had similar. As I mentioned in our coaching session about it, I could literally sense and feel the liberation of unity consciousness through you as you ate the meat. To me, this experience of liberation is practically beyond words.

So I'd say if you've explored the whole idea and it feels aligned and right, then why not keep exploring? It could be a long or short term thing - you never know!

Thanks for sharing

Chris

Hey Lesley,

I really admire your courage to go with what you felt right in the moment. Looking at my own journey I can see how easy it is to hold a view or belief about something which could actually override my authentic feeling in a given situation.

I have recently been contemplating whether I would eat meat in a survival situation. Somehow I feel that eating an animal that you have killed yourself in a compassionate and respectful way feels more in line with the animal kingdom than buying it and supporting the meat industry.
How I would feel about actually taking an animals life is another matter, even in an extreme situation. I guess I won't know that unless I am confronted with it.

Your post has inspired me to look even more deeply into how I feel in a given moment and look beyond any beliefs or views I may have, even if they seem spiritually or morally right.

Thanks for posting

David

Thank you so much for writing the following:

"Your post has inspired me to look even more deeply into how I feel in a given moment and look beyond any beliefs or views I may have, even if they seem spiritually or morally right."

That was exactly the point I was so wanting to get across, and was wondering if in giving too much detail I'd lost what I was trying to say. Such a lesson to learn for me, in such emotive circumstances, I can't even put into words my gratitude to those creatures. I knew what I was writing might sound totally abhorrent to the many sensitive souls who resonate with Openhand. Yet such a lesson for me, for within it I also learnt the depths of non judgmentalism required to maintain authenticity.

It's also so miraculous to me that I could engage in such a depth of experience in the full on matrix. How could I be having such a sacred meal in a huge pub geared to churning out hundreds of dinners? To be honest I find that even more miraculous than being somewhere that feels clear and sacred and being deeply touched by a special experience. Things like that make me feel the truth held in words like "Enlightenment is reached through all experience"

One of the deliberations I had before buying the meal was could I eat something if I wasn't personally prepared to take its life, I recalled last summer, going to pick a crab up on the beach and feeling its fear as it scuttled under a rock, and feeling bad for inducing that fear. I could have stopped the whole experience then and there by getting lost in that debate and the others about organic origins etc. But it all unfolded as soon as I just acknowledged a feeling that seemed crazy to the mind but was hammering loud and clear to be heard.

Thank you for posting too!

Lesley

Hi Lesley

I feel inspired by your post as well. Its so interesting and I also felt the level of courage and surrender to the Universe that meant you were not constrained by any concept of 'right' or 'wrong' but fully following the pull of the Soul. It seems like the meat eating is an example rather than the important point of the subject. To me it seems its about living in Truth and walking our paths without being limited to act in certain ways - and what that means to each of us individually.

I don't feel to eat meat. Yet if I genuinely felt I was given to? I feel I'd contemplate it, though it feels challenging to consider. I resonate with your approach. It feels aligned with Native American and other indiginous approaches to honouring the sacredness and beauty of the animal and the gift that brings.

I feel generally a plant based diet is of a higher vibration than a meat eating or vegetarian one, and so it seems more likely to facilitate our spiritual evolution. It feels more compassionate if engaged consciously.
Plus I feel its generally unecessary to eat another animal. and engage the process that it may undergo to arrive on the table.
and there's a question over discerning between a craving and an authentic yearning.

and I acknowledge each has their own path to walk and a completely vegan/raw/vegetarian diet (as examples) may not be appropriate for each. In this I like the idea of not labelling or constraining to be a certain way.

I think your post is a fine example of living in truth and not being limited to be or act in particular ways.

Thanks,

Ben

In response to Chris’s comment I want to say, I did not need “therapy” after my experience!! I was booked on a two day course with Openhand and the “turkey” experience happened on my way home the first evening, so of course it was the first thing I expressed to Chris when I arrived the next morning, still a little shell shocked by the enormity of the energetic impression it had made on me. I did not view it as a coaching session about “it”. The turkey had given me all my answers the night before, which I recounted. Answers to the questions I’d been left with after the first chicken meal. In truth the questions I’d had were only there because I was looking for how I must be doing something wrong, because I’d taken on some conditioning from the prevailing vegan winds. What felt somewhat stressing for me was experiencing the heart opening, expansion of the experience and having a worry that I might be judged by people within Openhand because veganism is so highly valued. And I value it too, but whilst I really resonate with eating a high poportion of vegetable based food I’ve never been a full vegan. The turkey told me it was joy filled at being eaten by me (that’s a pretty stunning thing to be told, I can tell you) and we became one, it told me animals don’t mind being eaten, its part of the law of nature, and I too am part of that law. I’m not apologising for or denying something that was given to me unequivocally. Nor am I promoting eating meat. I’m promoting serious evaluation of ones own truth. I am absolutely not advocating abuse of animals or factory farming, and I’m definitely not saying animals don’t mind those things, or that they don’t mind be over utilised in our food chain. I don’t believe in anything less than living in harmony with our fellow creatures, and I’m well aware that’s just not happening. But I am saying that if we did that, then some level of consumption of animal products (dairy and meat) from animals that have been lovingly reared would probably be in keeping with the flow of life on earth and its natural inhabitants.

I also want to say that when I talked of pleasure or joy, it was the joy that was released in me from the essence of the turkey, like feeling champagne fizz through me, that inspired my joy. What’s a little sad is that I had a slice of a bird that could feed about fifty people judging by the size of it, and I was probably the only one who had that depth of experience. I give huge thanks to Openhand for helping facilitate the changes in me that made that possible. I’m not pretending that turkey had a happy life, all I know is it did not reveal its pain to me, it revealed its joy at communing with a fellow animal (me) and reveled in the chance to do that and was clearly wishing to communicate the perfectly natural earthly nature of that to me, it still brings tears to my eyes when I think of it, and I can feel the relaxation that softens my body, aaaah, as I feel my truth behind something that could intellectually be debated as “wrong” forever and that I could easily be intellectually persuaded to agree with. I was meant to find that truth out, even though there’s little vestige of a natural human/animal synergy in society today. And again, isn’t it all the more miraculous to find it through all spanners in the system, all the things which have conspired to make us lose our natural heritage, yet there it is popping up when you least expect it, reaching you through all the darkness, fog and barriers, like an unextinguishable beacon. And a miracle and honour to connect with the magnificence of a creature whose brilliant essence was immaculately shining through beyond anything that it might have experienced. Nothing else was present in that moment.

Openhand is not about doctrine, yet when someone holds a highly prized view born of their own experience, it can seem very forceful to those around. The list of reasons not to eat meat contained in Chris and Trins responses to my post started to give me the impression I’d inadvertently been promoting eating meat, which wasn’t my point at all. My point was being open to finding ones own truth beyond any preconceptions.

If I was “perfect” and given up all meat and fish overnight I never would have had the experience with the trout that made me feel to the depths of my being that I don’t want any animal to suffer to feed me. For several years that has lead to me not eating animal products, but that might be changing for me now. Self realisation is about our journey, and that journey is unique to all of us, and our imperfections are often the the perfections that form the next experience. When some of us look at mirrors that are highly polished, it can feel inaccessible or unattainable, even incomprehensible. Which in itself could be a barrier to further evolution.

I feel there are people of different ancestry on this planet, and I can see how incomprehensible my experience might be for someone who comes from a more higher vibrational realm of complete unconditional love. However, I feel I’m being shown that a fairly low level of combined dairy and meat consumption, perhaps between 5% and 20%, is quite probably a natural diet for an earthy type like me. Of course, we all need Vitamin B12 to avoid serious illness and it is only found in animal products or via supplements. For some incarnates, the animal source would be quite inappropriate and deeply repulsive. For others it might not be. Whether or not one could source any animal products uncontaminated by drugs and hormones, is of course another question. Personally I shall only eat any more meat if I feel a clear pull to, but I do have a feeling its likely. I guess my main point is there’s not a one-size-fits-all answer to this.

I also feel that I could be described as a “bog standard earthling”, who likes to call a spade a shovel, and unless I can do that I’m not being me. Surely Openhand and all evolved and previously enlightened beings who have incarnated to help the ascension process are here to communicate with your average earth resident like me and it seems to me unhelpful to seemingly not appreciate that we might just be a lot more basic, and need to do things one step at a time, and have some characteristics that might be incomprehensible to you, but are a natural part of us. And whilst I love to hear Trin’s poetic discourses on esoteric matters using language that I just don’t possess, and Chris’s amazing revelations and accomplished interpretation of universal law, I can’t reach those dizzy heights, and I might be stuck on one tiny point but its important to me, and I have to express myself, which may sound like some cracked bell by comparison.

Oh, yeah, and I cease to need you when I’ve got a turkey for a friend And I can’t woffle on about power animals, because that would be language that’s not part of my experience, but many birds have been my guides, and their selflessness in service to me has always been a humbling experience.

And finally to say, this is just my experience and view today on an ever evolving path.

I think I'm done now, you'll be glad to know!
Love to all.
Lesley x

I would like to just chime in here with a little of my experience and learnings.
I had been mainly vegetarian for 20 odd years only to discover that I infact damaged my health to a certain degree by my lack of knowledge in this area..
I am a B negative blood group and to have seen and felt the effects that certain foods have on my system was and still is amazing. The thing was that my main diet consisted of many foods which can be detremental to my blood group and metabolism. Things such as Pulses, nuts, seeds, soya, etc. Which of course was my main diet then. It turned out after a couple of different tests being done that I could not digest this type of protein and many of the things had huge effects on my energy levels and my system. Chickpeas being a huge culprit...
I also went on a very steep learning curve after this time and really paid attention to what I was consuming. It took me a long time and a lot of deliberation to eat meat again (which i do on the odd occasion) but I will only eat ethically sourced meat from either the land where I am living at the time or a friends organic farm. I also eat locally culled Venison on occasion and would eat things like rabbit and Pheasant if presented.
When I went to live in Wales in 2009 I was given a fantastic opportunity to really see how I felt and thought about these things.
Living in Wales at 1000 feet presents great challenges to survival without consuming animals products.
The growing season is so short and you can and we did loose all fresh veg over night due to an early frost and for me it was devestating to have that experience when you have tended and relied on these precious gifts of veg for so long.
They have a cow there who they milk and the calves are not seperated from the mother. They also have chickens, and bees and a small flock of sheep. Everything they do is with great care to nature and to the animals and nothing taken lightly or for granted.
Also while there I attended a transition town meeting where and a lady had just done a thesis on sustainabile living for that area.
Her research was vast and the conclusion she came to were that the only way for the community to survive in the future was with small holdings consisting of a small number of animals and using permaculture methods.
I can only of course speak to you about my personal experience but just thought that it might be relevent to some others out there too as we certainly are all different.
Much love
Marion

I too have contemplated whether i would eat meat in the future if the situation called for it, I feel a resonance with indigenous peoples views on taking only what is needed, seems to hold a deeper respect for the animal they were consuming. lesley you said "started to give me the impression I’d inadvertently been promoting eating meat" I didn't get this impression, it felt more like they were responding to a part of your previous post whee it felt like you over egged what you were saying and felt the need to justify what you were doing, "animals eat each other, fact, that’s how it works". I feel they were just giving you another view you may not have considered.

I think your personal journey of exploration is wonderful Lesley.

I think its also essential to say that Trin and myself do not promote veganism. In fact, we don't promote anything!!! The Openhand way, is, and always has been, about empowering people to find their own truth. Full stop. If in some way you've felt judged by any of the work we've put forwards, I'd say there's something to look at for yourself.

Our experience, and that of working with many others, is that the evolutionary process is facilitated by raising vibration and foods that provide an easier exchange of prana (fruit and vegetables), tend to reduce the internal metabolic rate and with that raise vibration.

But I also observe that we each have a role and function in this life. I know you have gone to great lengths to self purify on your journey Lesley and have given up all attachment. This does you great credit and also means that you've reached a point where you're more able to make unloaded discernments. That's very different from someone giving in to a programmed craving and pretending it's okay because they haven't really had the courage to explore and delve deep.

I find I have a very 'pure' diet. I eat just two meals a day of fruit and vegetables with a high degree of raw. I don't seem to suffer any deficiences and feel very physically fit. When I go out into the woods, I can literally feel the consciousness of life around me, as if it's a part of me and running through my veins. I noticed the intensity of this experience practically double when I went raw vegan for the first time.

But like you, I also live in society which has its own varying challenges. Sometimes my vibration lowers depending on the connections I'm invited to make and the work I'm invited to do. Then I might eat denser foods and foods that have been quite addictive in the past. But now, because I'm internally conscious of the effects, I simply don't let them become addictive because I know that doesn't serve.

I find that what's happened to me is a flowering into full multi-dimensionality where I attune naturally and flow between dimensions. Raising and lowering vibration is a natural part of that. Perhaps this is what you're beginning to discover too Lesley?

Chris

Hi All,

I feel it really important to say (especially to anyone new to Openhand) that Openhand is about helping people find what is authentic to themselves - WHATEVER that may be. We feel that there is no right or wrong on the journey. The only thing we encourage is that the choices we make are conscious.

Lesley. Your experience is clearly profound
and I am delighted for you. As always I honour our uniqueness.

Dale. Thank you for your post. You are spot on. My previous post is simply offering another persective. As I mentioned clearly not saying what is right or wrong.

Marion. Wonderful to see you sharing here again. I always enjoy reading your posts with such sustainable explorations. Different climatatic zones certainly invite different diets. I often think of people living in the snow where vegtation rarely grows and compare it with Hawaii where I was happy to eat mangoes and coconuts all day long

We embrace conscious eating with open arms.

With Love
Trinity
x

When people laugh at me for not eating meat, I ask them if they could kill the cow, most say no, then I say, you cant do it cause it doesnt feel right so what do you do, you pay someone else to do something that doesnt feel right and for what, to eat meat, for what reason, flavor ? habit ? The only reason people have turned animals into food machines is for profit. Slaughter slaughter slaughter more money more money...
that doesnt feel right AT ALL ! It leads society at a very deep root (eating) from a beginning point of insensitivity... But there is a huge difference between societies auto-pilot unconscious consumerism, and Lesleys personal exploration/experience... in which I feel Mrs Lesleys story was certainly a take notice for all of us in alot of different ways ...
TY/GL
-Bill

I think this discussion on veganism is absolutely fascinating. I think it's also vital to point out that the Openhand way is to express and come from the inner inquiry only.

So for example, in reference to eating meat, I often hear about the compassionate killing of animals... "it's okay if they've lived and been looked after compassionately". And frequently, people may express the 'spiritual' point of view... "it's fine if its done in the 'sacred' way like the Native American Indians did it." These are two classic views that are frequently postulated in the discussion. But I wonder how often those viewpoints are actually done from the place of knowing? In other words, from people who've actually killed and eaten animals themselves?

I remember way back being on a survival exercise with the Royal Marine Commandos. We'd been out in the field for a number of days with no food. I wouldn't say I was starving, but it felt like I was! We were confronted with catching, killing, butchering and cooking a rabbit. At the time, I was not particularly awake and thought it would be something I could easily do without remorse. How wrong one can be! As I was soon to discover, there's a universe of difference between this and consuming 'bugs bunny' neatly packaged on the plate!

I'd been shown how to kill the rabbit. To hide its head under my arm and then to wring its neck. As I took the rabbit in my arms and shielded its head, the rabbit began to shake uncontrollably. Now I wasn't awake then, but the fear of the rabbit was palpable in the air - to even the most dense of consciousness. You could cut it with a knife. It certainly did not feel good. I killed the rabbit, butchered and ate it. It is a memory that has stayed with me all this time and will stay with me all my life. I know it planted the seeds of vegetarianism and later veganism.

Several years later, after I'd awoken, I came across an injured rabbit running circles in the middle of the road in front of me. It had been hit by a car and was clearly dieing. I knew it was called for me to put the rabbit out of its misery. It seemed the best way to do it was to strangle it. I thought the rabbit would die easily - not at all! It fought for every last breath of life. It took several minutes before it finally gave in. It was another experience that has moved me very deeply and has stayed with me ever since.

The reason I share the two stories is because I think it's all too easy to accept viewpoints without really having gone to the core of the issue. So if people truly feel it's fine to eat animals, then I'd say go out and kill them yourself and see how that feels.

To me, the rabbit fearlessly invites us to confront our fears. To really explore the truth on life's knife edge. That to me is what the inner inquiry is really all about.

Chris

Ok I think the discussion on veganism is totally facinating too. I would also like to point out that unless anyone has lived in circumstance where their health is challenged and where food is scarce (without animal produce ) then it is more difficult to put things into a real perspective on a personal level...
It would always be interesting for individuals to have the type of experience where you are challenged to make evaluations on things from your own perspective.
Now I have to say that after reading Lesley's last posting that I am with her on many points and I do agree with the fact that we do come from different vibrations and places(including different planets).. Some are able to go to this higher vibration with regard to food and others are not yet. This for me is where I feel it is truely important to respect and accept different peoples place on their personal journey.
I know that the Openhand way is to do this as much as possible, which is amazing and interesting, as often others without realising, take on ideas that they infact have not explored themselves and then cannot accept others who are on their own journey.
I do not believe there is a human on the planet that put in a life or death situation would not revert to the standard survival techniques, but it is whether they do it with awareness or not that truely matters I would say.
Even the very small experience I had with facing things and being able to put things in perspective from a very different view has changed me dramatically.
I would never change that experience, just as I would never change the experience of being on the street with the homeless in very dire circumstance. To be able to truely explore and appreciate what they are experiencing first hand.
It is easy in the 21st century to nip into the local shop and pick up some tofu or chickpeas or peanut butter, but to be faced with curcumstances on a hillside without nuts on our trees as the squirral population has taken over and veggies that cannot be sustained because of climate, Slugs, caterpillers etc etc etc and to be faced with the fact that here in the UK there is very little protein that actually is available in vegan format, then i think it is time to evaluate where we are and what we are able to do personally.
How long would we survive without the oil to bring in our protein?
I am aware that some beings are able to sustain on a raw food diet. I actually know that I cannot right now...
So what is the alternative for our future???
I have to add that I am absolutely not in favour of commercial meat supply or commercial animal produce etc. Infact very much the opposite of that as I eat a very small amount. I am however in favour of looking at where our future lies in food and it will be very intersting to see in the next couple of years what happens with our survival and our ideas.
with much thought
Marion

indeed, talking the talk and walking the walk are two completly different things, i have no idea whether i would be able to kill an animal. I worked on a farm for a short time, and i found it extreemly difficult to kill slugs who were eating the lettuces, it took me a while, but i went deeply into the myself and what the situation was inviting me, to feel fully each and every time i did it without being attached. If I found killing slugs difficult, i can't begin to imagin what i'd feel about killing a rabbit.
are we able to aquire our protine from beens?
Im sure I remeber trinity was exploring growing herracot beens in the garden a while ago

My reply here from a nutritional perspective would be that some people may be able to get a certain amount of protein from beans others may not. As our bodies, blood types, metabolic types and vibrations are very different I think we have to really pay attention to how we feel on an individual level. Also our bodies tend to respond very differently at different times of the year. I personally cannot eat much in the way of cold foods and certainly not raw, in the winter and i am sure this is true for a lot of people. The fact that our climate doesn't support a lot of plants in the winter either, makes it more difficult if we are going to be localised in our food production.
I think the other thing too, is that we do have a huge imbalance in nature now and yes we are battling with the slug, catterpillar and squirrel kingdom to not take all the food we plant. I used to have to spend over an hour every morning labouriously lifting the caterpillers off all the brassicas on the farm. I didn't kill them though just removed them from that habitat. I certainly am not the kind of person who promotes the killing of any creature un necessarily. I do know that for me personally it has been a process of feeling deeply into what is right for me in each given situation life as choosen to present me with. I could never speak for anyone else and would not try and get people to share my opinion but i would certainly encourage anyone to get back to nature and look deeply at what is and is not possible on a realistic level. I am sure soon enough our opinions and beliefs will all be put to the test when things start happening in the next couple of years.

I've given this some consideration and came up with quite a well rounded variety of high protein/energy "plant based" foods that would be available in the UK (most of which can be stored over winter). Here are a few suggestions...

Nuts (hazel nuts, walnuts, cob nuts, almonds, acorns, sweet chestnuts etc)

Seeds (sunflower, pumpkin, quinoa, aramanth etc)

Beans (harricot, canneleni, broad etc)

Peas (can be dried split peas for over winter)

Grains (barley, spelt, oats, wheat, rye)

Dried fruit (apple, pear, plum)

So those who feel more drawn to or suited to plant based diets have quite a selection available. My physical make up demands plant foods, but within that it fares much better with certain ones (it prefers nuts and seeds rather than beans or quinoa/aramanth rather than wheat for example).

I was actually suprised when I started looking into what is available in the UK over the winter. Kale, cauliflower, swede, lots of root veg, cabbage and winter greens are all in abundance locally. Plus potatoes, grains, nuts, seeds, dried beans and legumes, dried fruit. Squash/pumpkins store well over the less productive months.

With Love
Trinity

Marion wrote "i would certainly encourage anyone to get back to nature and look deeply at what is and is not possible on a realistic level

Indeed! The more we explore this, the more we will see where the shortfalls are and will be more inspired to really explore what works for us. This type of inner inquiry feels essential preparation for coming times, whatever choices we make.

Dale wrote: If I found killing slugs difficult, i can't begin to imagin what i'd feel about killing a rabbit.

I know that one is a big 'soul searcher'!

When I was a teenager and my Mum was briefly teaching me to drive, I swerved the car off the road when an animal crossed over. She was horrified. I couldn't see anything wrong with what I'd done - I remember thinking that I didn't value my own life any more than that other creature. It did cause me to really look deep within and explore how I really felt about that.

Trinity
x

Hey Trin,

Yes I agree, the view that plant based diets don't provide enough protein in winter doesn't really hold water for me either.

I was also drawn to this point you made in your last comment...

"I didn't value my own life any more than that other creature"

This is one of the things I find very interesting in the meat eating inquiry too... what gives us the right to judge whether one animal (ie us) should live over the preference of another?

Chris

Hi all, I am going to shut up soon honest....
I just wanted to say that I appreciate the research done for sure as I did quite a bit too out of interest for my health and while in Wales.
I must point out though that although the information states that lots of things can be grown in the uk the reality of doing it is not always equal to the ideas. We have challenges in different areas. For instance in Wales they had every nut tree possible only to discover not only were the nuts All taken by the squirrels but the trees were being stripped of their bark and all dying.
They tried fruit trees too but they were not producing much at all and were experimenting with lots of different types.
Also we were due to do some experimentation on growing Quinoa and barley etc but unfortunately I left and never got the chance to try it.
All I know is the climate for instance in the far north of Scotland or at 1000 feet up in wales will not sustain enough plant growth over winter to feed a hungry family.
Also in the north of scotland little Mr Bunny eats everything in sight and to try and secure bunny proof fencing in larger areas can be a difficult job. Then of course up there is Bambi and Bambi eats a lot too and runs a mock and jumps high.
So certainly my ideals were put to the test in seeing these things first hand but as I say until I was actually faced with waking up in the morning and seeing everything I had worked for weeks tending gone overnight it is the harsh reality I often think off when making my choices for health.
Ok thats me done now as this is only my experiences and deductions, and it is a constant school of learning as only last week I felt i was walking through treacle all week. To discover the culprit was Barley cup!!!!!! Hum its mean when you have to give up things you love

Indeed they are all fascinating points Marion. Yes it can be exceptionally difficult to live in certain climates on a purely planet based diet the whole year round. But then I think it's mistaken to say that because we can't find certain foods in certain climates all the year round that must mean we're meant to eat foods that are available just because they are available. You see, I would ask are we living according to how we were 'designed' to live and in the areas we were 'designed' to live?

For me, there is not one area on this planet that has not been shaped or influenced by the Matrix. That includes how and where we live. We're being boxed into pigeon holes that don't truly fit. But my challenge here is to rise above the Matrix: to find my humanness and authenticity beyond it. That doesn't mean to say I won't make compromises - every choice in this situation is a compromise. But then neither will I justify those choices either - I'm not going to try to make them 'right'. I'm being honest with myself about the compromises I make and why.

All the while, I'm constantly working towards the higher truth - what I know in my heart to be true.

Chris

interesting debate!

To me the main message from Lesley's post, and underlying the others too is that of self-discernment and honesty. To debate the values of eating a vegan or meat based diet seems to move away from the 'heart' of the discussion - that is what do we honestly feel to do as individual's as aligned with the Soul?

To me it seems that relatively there is not one answer for everyone. I think the invitation is to look at our motivations and our feelings and then make choices consciously, and even this ability would likely vary between individuals.

I feel for example that is was authentic to eat meat as part of my diet for quite a while. Becoming vegetarian then vegan seemed to naturally flow. Now I don't feel to eat meat. but if I did? perhaps I would.

I've contemplated the reality of the possibility of being a completely self-sufficient vegan in the uk. I feel it may be possible, but would require plenty of land and a lot of work (full-time land work). Is it feasible (for me)? It doesn't feel feasible at this time for me to do that. Does this mean I should eat meat reared on the land? Well I don't have even a garden to raise a goat(!) or grow vegetables! Living in the city maybe isn't the most 'natural' place in regards our living close to the earth, and how perhaps people's ancestors did. Still its part of society's reality. and we CAN connect and be conscious even in that society. Should everyone go and live in the countryside on a small holding? Its not a valid alternative - There's not enough land! So what are the implications?

To me it feels that society isn't very in tune with Nature generally. Yet the world has 'evolved' to this. rather than want for a version of the 'old world', we might look to the new. What can we do here?
So we can do what we feel to do within this world. I might feel to buy a large percentage of local food for example, but will likely supplement with foods that aren't local and may have been transported, because its a realistic choice. I am aware of these things. I feel we're working in the world as it is, not as it was. I may resonate with indiginous approaches to honouring and connecting and be inspired by them. And also realise we're not them! Even those decended from those peoples are not them because the world has changed since those times. So it feels we're invited to evolve our own ways of being here, and now.

it seems at this time, that the world can realistically support more vegetarians and vegans (in regards land use etc), and it seems that consciously living in this way can also support the world/earth (it seems more environmentally friendly etc). but in the uk it may not be feasible for most to live completely self-sufficiently in that way, at this time. Yet does that mean vegans should start eating meat? how many meat eaters eat their own animals? how many vegetarians milk their own cows? Could every meat eater raise their own animals to sustain themselves? So the debate may continue. Yet in overly engaging with the details of the debate, the truth within it could be hidden.

I feel the essence of it is the valuable part - how do we as individuals feel to be and do when we look and feel honestly? How do we walk our own path?

with thanks

Ben

My friends thank you all for your incredible sharing on this discussion! I'm especially touched by Lesley's turkey experience and Chris's sharing about killing the rabbits! I deeply resonate that the openhand way is about finding and expressing one's own truth! I do feel strongly that we should respect all lives on the planet and I feel given to share this song here...

You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim
But I know every rock and tree and creature
Has a life, has a spirit, has a name.

Come run the hidden pine trails of the forest
Come taste the sun-sweet berries of the earth
Come roll in all the riches all around you
And for once never wonder what they're worth

The rainstorm and the river are my brothers
The heron and the otter are my friends
And we are all connected to each other
In a circle in a loop that never ends

How high does a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know
And you'll never hear the wolf cry to the blue corn moon

This is VERY COOL, thank you Mr Lei...

Thank you Lei. I love the video
x

Really great discussion, points and such a beautiful video. Thanks! And thanks for the reminder!!!

In the previous year I went through recalibration considering my 'lifestyle' choices. I was vegan and 'healthy', eco-friendly and stable with my daily routine, everything was great and I felt very satisfied with my behavior

And then something happened, everything fell apart - I almost drowned in dairy, and got lost in time, like oh my God, it's 2 am, and I'm still not asleep!! I was late everywhere. The eco-friendly shampoo was not good enough out of sudden, and so on.

I couldn't understand what was going on. Until finally it landed on me, that it's the 'why' question. Why vegan? Why eco-friendly? Why do yoga every morning?

In the beginning I did all this because I felt this way, but after a while it became a habit, a ritual even, and I lost 'contact'. And then I felt good and was afraid to ruin it, to lose it.

So I feel it is very important to see where I'm fixed now,
and won't allow myself to flow naturally because of my fixations.

For me this is really not simple, so now when I read Lesley's post I felt really amazed. In this kind of situations I get lost in the meantime, my mind interferes and begins to drive me crazy. BUT IT'S WRONG!! but you'll feel bad! etc etc begins to run different video-clips hhhh (in all kinds of situations and choices).

This is really inspiring!

Even though I feel confused all the time, but I try to ask myself as much as I can why I do things, and really make space for spontaneous and free actions, feelings, etc, even if I make mistakes and follow something that is not coming from the soul.

I also work on it with my work, how to 'delete' the previous efforting way of working, move out of the way and just let things come. Challenging, but so amazing when I manage, even just for a moment.

Another thing: the solidarity...
I thought about it a lot, and despite I still close my eyes like I used to do when I saw horror movies, when I see trucks on a highway stuffed with chickens that can't even move, when I see other people eating them near me, I feel like, even if I don't eat them, then at least I'll give them love and respect now, when others eat them in my presence, instead of judging and going in this direction of you know, "all this is wrong".

I feel something similar to this solidarity often when I walk in nature, that was soiled, or breathing polluted air in the center of Tel Aviv. I used to become very tight and felt like running away, until one day I began to feel this "I'm with you on this" thing. If nature is going through this, if people left piles of garbage in the forest, then I don't walk away because it's unaesthetical, sad, wrong or anything like that. I feel some kind of solidarity, with the forest with this pile in it. It feels really home then, and also like loving and accpeting something also when it is not in 'its best', especially if it is not its fault.

For those who're interested in nutrition and health, I can't recommend highly enough the book 'The China Study' by T Colin Campbell. The book thoroughly looks at the relationships between nutrition (diet) and diseases from a holistic perspective with tons of research evidences provided, it is not about dogmas, rather the author encourages readers to draw their own conclusions! In my opinion it is really the single most important book on nutrition and health ever written and it impact is still to be felt in years ahead as more people wake up to the importance of eating a plant based diet to their long term health, also it is very well written and one of the most logically coherent books I've ever read. I have to say the research findings in the book are really startling, I remember I was underlining every page while reading it. It completely debunks the myth that we need to eat meat for protein!

here quoting from wikipedia about 'the China study', the most important study among many talked about in the book..
The study, which began in 1983 and was described by The New York Times as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology", was conducted jointly by Cornell University, Oxford University, and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine over the course of twenty years.

below is a video of a wonderful presentation by Dr Campbell, the author of the book, it's about 1hr30mins long, it really summarizes some of the core messages quite brilliantly!

Amazon link
http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/d...

Well all, Here I am again...I have been deliberating and mulling over and seeing how I feel about this discussion while lying in my bed, so unable to sleep I decided to get up and write some things down.
First of all I have not watched the whole of the above video yet or read the book so cannot comment on the content but it does ring alarm bells when someone claims something is "the single most important book on nutrition and health ever written" and the fact that "It completely debunks the myth that we need to eat meat for protein! "
Hum How many times have we heard " there is evidence to prove it scenario???"
What about our own proof for ourselves?

So anyway in relation to some of the other postings too I have some qestions arising.
Who are the WE i ask? Does the WE apply to everyone??
How about for example mongolian people or Inuit people?? Does it mean they are less likely to be spiritual by nature or less healthy because they eat mainly a meat based diet??
Do they compromise their choices by eating what is available? Are there choices shaped by the matrix or by where they find themselves living?
I could not quite grasp the essence of what you were saying here Chris. "But then I think it's mistaken to say that because we can't find certain foods in certain climates all the year round that must mean we're meant to eat foods that are available just because they are available. You see, I would ask are we living according to how we were 'designed' to live and in the areas we were 'designed' to live?

Were we not designed to live as hunter gatherers,(which I am pretty sure we may very well get back too yet in the years ahead) and was it not the fact that natural habitats were wiped out to make way for farming and plant crops?
Were we designed to live in cities and eat products such as Tofu?
I agree our environment has changed substantially and I believe from vast evidence our systems have evolved to be able to digest and eat things that 1000s of years we probably couldn't but I still do not believe that all our systems are the same and people can be pigeon holed into one diet is right for all..
A couple of friends and I did an unintentional experiment a while back where i was on a vegan diet and they were on a blood group diet. After a week we monitored our experiences. I was feeling really awful and weak and like walking through treacle. Unable to do anything in the afternoon even walking was a struggle. (Now I don't know if you remember Chris and Trin how I went through this when i stayed with you guys a while back) I never understood it then but when i look back now I can see the similarity of my energy level and sluggishness.
Anyway my friends who were on the diet for o blood group types which involved eating meat had never had so much energy before and were feeling brilliant. I had a look into it and tried switched some of the things I was eating to match my blood type and hey presto I came bouncing back...
I do appreciate what you were saying Ben about the heart of the discussion become about doing what felt right for ourselves and I agree that everything here does come back to that core but the title and original topic of discussion here was a contemplation on the spirituallity of veganism.
My contemplation is does being Vegan make you more spiritual??
Does it mean Buddha was less spiritual in his choices (as he himself was said to eat meat) and I believe so do many monks even now.
Does this lower their vibration?
Does it mean they are not walking their true path?
Does it mean Dale when you said "If I found killing slugs difficult, i can't begin to imagine what i'd feel about killing a rabbit." Does that mean a slug is less important than a rabbit??
If we have to kill slugs to save our veggies where is the difference with eating what we kill. Now I am not suggesting we eat slugs but if for example we need to rectify an imbalance caused by man (i'e rabbits or squirrels) Is it not a senseless act to kill and not honor the animal by eating it and continuing its cycle?
This is only a contemplation I am offering here of course.
The debate and the production of evidence we have found about what is right or wrong or more or less spiritual could go on for ever as I am sure we all feel strongly about our beliefs and experiences. What sits true in ones heart definately can not be judged or changed by someone elses opinions, but their experiences can often widen our knowledge and view of things. I think that being open to new ideas and having the chance to contemplate them is what shapes our journey and evolution. Just to feel into everything we do and how it sits with us personally, paying close attention to what our bodies and hearts are saying makes life a whole lot richer and more interesting i would say rather than relying on this piece of scientific evidence v's another or what we read in this book or that.

Anyway think I have the jist of my ramble out now so maybe I will head back to bed and get up and have a full English breakfast tomorrow just because I am in Scotland .....................
ONLY JOKING HONEST !!!!
Nighty night

Hi Lei,

We came across The China Study here at Openhand a while back. It does indeed seem an incredibly thorough and deep exploration into the benefits of eating a plant based diet.

Thanks for sharing the video.

Chris

To turn this into a question of nutrition is really a twist to hold on to our conditioning I feel, might I add that alot of people on this planet poison their bodies constantly with alcohol, drugs, sugar, whatever you name it, and despite this fact people live a long time anyway, Im not saying to live that way but the body is durable. But to me this isnt a matter of I like meat or I think its ok for ME to eat it, this is a matter of the ANIMALS who are eaten... this line in the original article says it all for me... " A passionate discussion on the evils of factory farming does nothing to convey the sense of connection and harmony that this path of non-violence gives me. It is in this vision of magic, not in the lists of horrific facts, that my veganism is rooted." If those words dont pull on your heartstrings to consider then read the article again ... in fact Im not sure we've dove into the whole Factory Farming issue which quite frankly Im more than happy to leave alone.... ITS BEYOND IMAGINATIONAL SADNESS, I would challenge anyone to witness a slaughterhouse and feel the same way while they were chewing...I am the Walrus... The Beattles
-Bill

Hi Marion,

You say...

"What sits true in ones heart definately can not be judged or changed by someone elses opinions, but their experiences can often widen our knowledge and view of things. I think that being open to new ideas and having the chance to contemplate them is what shapes our journey and evolution. Just to feel into everything we do and how it sits with us personally, paying close attention to what our bodies and hearts are saying makes life a whole lot richer and more interesting i would say rather than relying on this piece of scientific evidence v's another or what we read in this book or that."

Yes, this is the Openhand way. It's exactly what we're saying. Except remember that truth is a spontaneous thing - including our own. Authentic Truth (not something held in the mind) can change according to our feelings, how we're evolving and the changing consciousness landscape we're involved in. It can change as we uncover each new thread of inquiry. An inquiry into the effect of blood-types might lead to something else and a seemingly totally different 'answer'. What might be 'right' for us in one moment, could change (although the soul also has a consistency to it too). It's all about the inquiry - BUT - without dogma and with profound self honesty. AND, uncovering our WHOLE truth not just a part of it.

What is spiritual?...

"To me it's all about the inquiry.
It's the constant conscious choice
Realising we're are the cause and creation of our own reality
and taking responsibility for that."

Did I come from a hunter gatherer background? I don't believe so (as a soul at least). But I certainly may have that in my human genetics. What I can also tell you is that forty years of eating meat in this lifetime left several pounds of festering muccoid placque in my gut. Did I know it was there? No. Did I feel debilitated by it? No. But I did feel a completely different being having got rid of it - in fact the liberation and sense of lightness was practically beyond words. Was it challenging to go this deep? You bet! Did I feel to give in and stop? At times yes. This is the depth of inquiry I'm really talking about. Going deep into the stillness and pushing back the boundaries no matter how bad the "cold turkey" might make us feel.

The point that I was making about living environments Marion, is that practically no human environment is natural - as it was originally designed (except perhaps if you're living in some remote jungle as a part of some undisturbed ancient culture). So I was challenging the point that for humans living in a climate that does not provide protein the whole year round, it must be right for them to eat animal protein.

And really, at the end of the day, it's not so much about our bodily functions that really count. To me, Homo Sapiens was a contrived mistake anyway. If you really contemplate it, I'd say that generally (not referring to some indigenous cultures) we seem perhaps the least adapted creature on the planet. Yes our brains can control the planet (according to a particular manipulated plan), but most people would find it really difficult to survive in a healthy and balanced way without the system that 'sustains' us...

To me, we're here to get back into line with our souls. To learn to be at-one with our deepest inner calling. To do that we have to process our karma: essentially the manipulation and control we've subjected the planet to - a large part relating to how we've exploited the animal and plant kingdoms for food. Yes it's going to be challenging and painful to come back into line. But that is our challenge. Does eating an animal make my body feel better? In some circumstances perhaps. Does that make it right? Only your soul can decide. But be absolutely sure of one thing... that it is your SOUL guiding the show and not your conditioning.

Finally, I notice that no-one really answered the question I posed earlier in the thread...

"What gives you the right to judge that one animal should die to sustain your life?
What makes your life more important?"

Chris

Hey Chris, Sorry I missed that question but I'll do my best then to answer it from where i am at right now and what feels right to me.

If all things are equal and we are truely at that high level of evolvement then could we not survive on prana??
I hasten to add I am no where near that point and not sure that will ever happen this life time (but hey never say never.) I tend to believe my purpose here has a much more earthy and bridge like feel to it, and like Lesley my shovel too is a spade like thingy .

So on that note back to the other question "What gives you the right to judge that one animal should die to sustain your life?
What makes your life more important?"
So "What gives anyone the right to kill plants to sustain life??
What gives us the right to chop a tree up to make a fire?
If we go into Diva connection are the diva's happy for us to eat the plants?? Most would say yes I think... but as long as it was with respect.
So what makes the difference to our choices? What makes the difference to how we decided if an animal is more important than a plant?
Again we ask inside, and we then live by the answers we get.

Bill I just want to say, I was unaware this conversation was about the horrors of factory farming??
I have absolutely no connection or desire to go down that route at all as like you I feel the complete outrage of it.
I do however have a great interest in the nutritional side as the effects are so great on my system it cannot be denied.
"I am a human with a system right now not a soul without a body....."
As a vegan do you grow and plant your own produce?
Have you witnessed how it feels to loose it all over night?
Are you going to be alive to watch your chestnut tree grow to the producing stages?
Do you cosume protein that has been flown in from thousands of miles away to sustain your need to stay vegan?
How will that be when we have no oil?
I add these questions in as I often think people are very quick to assume we whom are not vegan are infact in favour of slaughter houses and mass dairy production.
Unfortunately at the moment even organic farmers and small holdings are faced with having to use slaughter houses no matter what their personal feelings are about their animals. We are not allowed to slaughter on the land unless for our own consumption... And that does not mean for the family just the person the animal is registered too!!!!!! What interesting laws we have here in this Matrix which we are controlled by at the moment whether we like it or not.
So no it is not an easy decision.
I am more inclined towards not farming as such but what we have around us to sustain us if our system still demands alternative protein?
There is a lot of wild food that is in abundance because we have put the natural system out of balance through our desires to make certain choices.
I agree with you totally Chris when you say "but most people would find it really difficult to survive in a healthy and balanced way without the system that 'sustains' us...
I think so many people have lost touch with nature, with its harshness and its beauty shining out at us.
So now i ask again do people feel that Buddha or a Buddhist monk is less spiritual because they chose to eat meat?
Did Jesus eat meat? I believe so.
When you say Chris "Did I come from a hunter gatherer background? I don't believe so (as a soul at least). But I certainly may have that in my human genetics" Are we not souls having a human existence?
I certainly think I came from hunter gatherer by how I feel in nature and where my passions and respects lie.
Now about mucoid plaque.. Can we say for sure that it was meat that caused this??
What about bread and processed vegetarian food??? is that less damaging to our systems?? I am not so sure.
I wonder if the Mongolians or the Inuits have mucoid plaque... Interesting it would be to know for sure.
I know for you Chris that it is your truth that it was meat but I am just keen to point out that it is a physical thing caused by wrong nuturition. Here we are back at Nutrition (sorry Bill) but agian what is the right nutrition for me is not right Nutrition necessarily for you. What would cause mucoid plaque or damage to my system ?? (could have been a lot of things but I was a longer time without meat than with it!!!)

So then when you say Chris "I'd say that generally (not referring to some indigenous cultures) we seem perhaps the least adapted creature on the planet." I would say that a huge poplulation have adapted marverlously to a totally un natural way of living. What their system can tolerate would be un imaginable 100s of years ago. I think the problem for most will lie more when we have to get back to basic survival skills and living more naturally.
So here is another question now.
Have I chosen a violent path as opposed to a non violent one because of where my beliefs lie in nutrition?
Hum one to ponder i would say.
I totally agree that our truth is a spontaneous thing. I certainly don't think I sit in a truth just because it was that way today. If tomorrow I am faced with an experience that helps me to feel around and see if it still fits then that is what I will do. I don't feel this is letting the mind decide. (is that what you meant Chris?)
My experiences up until this point have been interesting ones and I oven wonder if they are an accumulation of survival techneques that may be called upon in the not to distant future.
I don't think we are going to pop off in 2012 to a lovely higher place just like that. I truely feel we will all be faced with putting our core values and beliefs to the ultimate test first.
But hey ho thats just me.

All good points Marion.

You ask: "What gives anyone the right to kill plants to sustain life??"

You don't kill the apple tree by eating its apples. The apples are designed for consumption by other life - that's their purpose. The same goes for many (but not all) fruits and vegetables.

Chris

I wanted to ramble some more. It was something you said Trin to Lesley.

"I do feel that yes, other animals kill each other and eat one another - BUT they have the instinct to kill along with teeth designed to rip through skin and flesh (unlike human beings). We are the only mammal in the world that needs to cook it's flesh in order to make it palatable. To me that is a sign of the times.

I agree it is a sign of the times but I don't think it is that we were not designed to eat raw meat, and that we did not have the instict to kill or rip through flesh. I do think however we have evolved through the fact that someone somewhere many many years ago took the initiative to try cooking meat to maybe make it more palitable, or maybe it was to keep it longer or to kill disease within the meat... Who knows why but what I am getting at is that humans were given the ability to use their initiative and that our systems have and do evolve to fit our ever changing environment and circumstance.
Thus now we have lost the instinct to hunt our prey or eat raw meat, but not sure it means we are not meant too??
Just because we can make a concious choice at this point does not make it wrong to feel the need to sometimes eat meat. (well in my way of thinking anyway)
What about the domesticated Dog.....
It eats cooked meat often as conditioned by humans. Many dogs would not kill another animal. Does that mean they should eat a vegan diet?
Does that mean that the instinct has been bred out of them? Does that make it right?
Hum more ponderings.....

Hey Chris, yes I agree you don't kill the apple tree to eat its fruit but you still do take its fruit , like taking honey from a bee maybe???
Dunno just a thought...
But I was referring to lettuce, cabbage, carrots, turnip, cauliflower, barley, quinoa etc etc
You know what I mean:-)
Just find it a very interesting concept.
Hey Chris you helped me get to this point of questioning and feeling so for that I will be eternally grateful.
With much Love and continuing to feel it all through.
Marion xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I can see the similarity: when I eat vegetables and fruits it is also clear to me, that I don't let it live, get old and die in its natural way. I take it in its best, and it was not even me who climbed, worked hard and picked it with the resulting respect to it coming at least from the labor to get it.

I also admit, that I don't see anything bad in eating animals, despite I myself don't do it simply because I don't feel like. What saddens me is the way they are treated during their life, and the attitude to them as a food, i.e. disrespect, taking for granted, while buying/cooking and eating them, and also consuming in much larger quatities than it is actually necessary for the human body.

I remember my grandmother's sister, who lived in a country. They grew two pigs, very cute. We saw them growing from tiny pink 'piggies'. They were very loved and well taken care of. Mashka and Dashka

And then one day we recieved a letter, in which we were announced that Mashka and Dashka were made leave this world and that they were very tasty. And even this was written with love, and I just can't see anything wrong with that. Just like picking an apple and 'violently' biting on it, or slashing through it with knife.

Of course everybody will have different 'opinions' on all this, because I beleive it's the matter of 'feeling' and not rational, or moral.

So just as I don't judge those who eat meat(consciously), I also don't diminish my responsibility when I eat vegetables and fruits. Killing it IS (to me), but it's not my fault my body is built in such a way, that I must destroy something in order to keep this body alive/warm etc. The fact it is alive already causes damage (stepping on ants on the ground, breaking trees for a fire, picking plants and changing the local point environment as a result, and it is in the most 'natural' case). This is the cycle of life and death all around.

I ask: who gives me the right to take an apple, creation in its full beauty and decide it is there for consumption by other life, i.e. me? And its purpose maybe is simply be there on the ground, rot and feed the ground and not my body?

I also don't feel anything injust when I see the pictures of indians with fur and animals' skin on them. They were cold, and they needed it to keep themselves warm. And they did hunt and eat animals. So I think it is not something that is general, but more again comes with the questions "why" and "how"? Why eat it? If my body needs it now and it is real, then I don't see how it's more problematic than damaging an apple. And "how" - just as Lesley described, I see something very beautiful and unifying in it, rather than cruel and injust.

And we are part of the environment, and we can be either plant- and meat-eaters. Who knows, maybe at some point we'll go natural, but then the rabbits will reproduce too fast, and we will be guided to dilute their population by eating them?

Now considering cooking and teeth - as far as I know there was a period in Homo evolution, when people ate meat uncooked, and their teeth were much sharper than the teeth of modern Homo. How the evolution of teeth evolved after and why people switched to mainly vegetarian diet, might have to do with anything - like maybe they 'evolutionary' noticed that they get sick and die (maybe because of germs or other diseases coming from uncooked meat), or maybe because they migrated to areas richer in fruits/vegetables
which were easier to get than run and fight and go crazy with all that meat running away from you. There are many hypotheses, assumptions and speculations about it. Just as there are the debates going around about how Homo are not supposed to eat meat because they have nothing predacious in their physical appearance. But...

What I'm interested in are facts, and the facts are such, that people eat meat, from very long time ago. And the other fact is that at the moment I don't resonate with eating meat, but it might change, according to the state/situation, etc

And while writing it, I think how a mind can rationalize and justify ANYTHING! It was always interesting for me to see it. It is so much more simple and efficient just to follow the inner truth without even thinking about is this right or wrong, and what and who is supposed, meant, built to...So the only real questions that remain for me are like: "is this pull I feel authentic"? or "is this real?", etc. So I'll go work on this one ;D

Love,
Yulia

I will say that it is truly my pleasure Mrs Marion to discuss nutrition with you, I just dont feel its the key factor on this topic... If you were stranded somewhere but not dying of hunger you wouldnt eat the people your stranded with, it would take life or death scenario for most... so why would animals in a non survival situation be any different ? Unless the individual didnt consider animals in that way...and I feel that is our real discussion.... ARE ANIMALS OUR EQUAL ? That question is answered different by everyone.... How do you feel Marion ? and in going inward youll find your answers. Its a slow process (so it seems) but its about as sure as it gets and not as slow as you might think.... I LOVE OPENHAND ! An important factor is that it is all a very fine INTERNAL BALANCE... Everything right in front of our eyes is feeding on and supporting all life in some way at the same time... but remember Mrs Marion WE ARE NOT GUIDED BY WORDS, the guidance youll receive comes from your internal feelings and thIS is where youll find your answers... Chris cant really tell you how you feel about a topic, no one can you are unique, but I really feel that as soon as we start using words we start going in circles, like we are gaining understanding through words when real understanding comes from following the feeling down your path, theres not alot to say. Your experience is your direct dance with the universe,feel that, as Chris once wrote, you are the universe so all possibilities are contained with-in you...
GL
-Bill

Hi Marion,

I do think the China study is the most important book on nutrition and health, at least that's my personal feeling. One does need to read the book in order to fully appreciate its importance and implications. As I said it's not at all about dogmas, and it does look at nutrition holistically. By holistic I mean it looks at the interconnectedness of everything, not just one aspect of something. The human body is an entire ecosystem, it works in an incredibly complex way, we cannot isolate something to study how its effect is on something else and then conclude A is causing B, that's scientific reductionism. Our body is like nature itself, there're lots of back up systems, often lots of things and factors working in concert to create health and illness. That's why I think the book makes so much sense. When all the signs and evidences are pointing at the same direction, then I know there's something important there and my heart resonates too.

I do think it's a myth that we need to meat for protein. Proteins (animo acid) are used to build the body, babies need the most protein because their bodies grow fastest, yet mother's milk is about 8% protein (as a percentage of calorie), fruit and vegetables alone average about 6-7% protein, nuts and seeds are even much higher. It's practically impossible for any adults to be deficient on proteins in our modern society unless they're really starved and severely under-nourished. Protein deficiency is literally unheard of in medical circle!

I have to say that I feel the decision to eat meat based on a blood type theory cannot be possibly coming from the heart. I feel quite strongly that people should to be better informed on nutrition and health and many other aspects of eating a plant based diet, it's simply too important for our collective evolution. Here I feel to share a few statistics..

Quoting from http://www.raw-food-health.net/SaveTheEnvironment.html

It's absolutely clear that the single easiest thing a person can do to help save the environment is to give up meat and dairy. This will free up millions of acres now used for animal agriculture that could then be replanted with trees.

Here's some food for thought:(12)
Percentage of food grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20
Percentage of food grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef alone: 56
Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed 1 person consuming meat-based diet: 20
Number of people who could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by only 10%: 60 million
Cost of common hamburger meat if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by U.S. taxpayers: $35 a pound
Leading source of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet: Meat 55%
Second leading source of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet: Dairy products 23%
Total pesticide residues in U.S. diet supplied by vegetables: 6%
Total pesticide residues in U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4%

( source: (12) "The Food Revolution," John Robbins, 2001)

Beyond grain-based vegetarianism, a diet of raw fruits, nuts, and vegetables will actually regenerate the earth.
In terms of water, it's clear that fruits use the least:

Water Used To Produce 2.2 pounds of:(13)

2.2 pounds Beef - 16,000 Gallons
2.2 Pounds Cheese- 1,321 Gallons
2.2 Pounds Eggs- 872 Gallons
2.2 Pounds Barley- 343 Gallons
2.2 Pounds Potatoes- 142 Gallons
1 Apple- 18 Gallons
1 Quart OJ -5 Gallons

here a video of my mate Harley, a thriving raw vegan athlete for many years, I think he's actually blood type O. I find this video to be very inspiring!

much love,

Lei

P.S. I appreciate very much with vegan message in the video, but I no longer resonate with the idea of trying to manipulate our thinking to cause a positive mental state.

Lei you ROCK ! Also I go back and reread these posts and Im see my postings somewhat attuned to the difficulty of things as opposed to their light, which is something that Chris mentioned to me a while back, so sorry to everyone that has felt my abrasiveness, but Im evolving to and I know that this is apart of it...POWERHOUSE THREAD

I love the guys attitude - thanks for sharing Lei. I get the sense too that he's not actually manipulating his thinking so much. I get the sense he's actually attuning his consciousness which is a quite a different thing altogether (although the two do get confused). So I get the sense he's feeling a genuine arising of energy within, which feels great, at-one with who he is and then he's aligning with that - that would be the Openhand way.

Although of course, if you're feeling pretty negative for some reason, yes our approach would be to go deeply into that and explore it to find the reasons which then facilitate that state dissolving.

Cheers

Chris

Yes in general I do find him to be quite authentic with an overwhelming desire to contribute. It's really quite incredibly how far he's come, you wouldn't believe he was a guy who suffered from chronic fatigue, depression and all sorts of other ailments many years ago. He's really quite an inspiration for many and shows us what is possible!

here are two more my favorite videos of him..

Okay so there's an interesting couple of videos - very inspiring yet I can see where a deeper realisation is being invited of him too - he would seem to indicate that he definitely has a preference as to his state of being - happiness.

Yet in his happiness I see something I would define as contentment, at-one-ment, awesome okayness. This is a state that for me, is an experiential definition of the source - the Seer. It is always there and the real 'challenge' in life is to always come from this place - to me, that is who we are.

Yet on top of that awesome okayness, can 'be built' a whole range of emotions some of which would appear 'unhappy'. We might even feel unhappy - yet at the core of this is still the awesome okayness.

To me this is what it means to be 'authentic'. We come from the place of awesome okayness, allow to express what wants to express, we set it freely adrift in the world, yet never lose the core. That's Enlightenment - a state beyond a state and it's truly what we are.

Chris

I so get that Mr Chris, yesterday I had another emotional flood when something popped and instead of merging with the emotion, I put it aside and kinda rose above it, opened to it. I was uplifted to the perfect miraculous sizzling of being, how perfect each and every second is and feeling its building acceleration of flow....I see now Ive been talking to myself on this thread, putting words aside to feel, being unattached to feel the pull those words ARE FOR ME TO USE, and when I followed I discovered that I am a Seer, (from this unattached place of pause) for all this universe, realising what I am , the freedom available to make amazing choices from my heart! So my next eye to watch for is your words..." the Seer. It is always there and the real 'challenge' in life is to always come from this place "
Im feeling vibrarant embracing the perfection of all with a particular gesture to Openhand at this moment is my first act of choice...
Bill

Hi Chris, thanks for this very insightful comment! I find it incredibly helpful to read your observations. I completely resonate that the negative states are not something to be gotten rid of or dissolved. True liberation lies in completely facing everything and avoiding nothing, yet I find it to be extremely challenging to truly face and confront everything in life, but it's great this is pointed out so clearly at Openhand, not many teachings do that!

Thanks for the support guys - I'm glad the observations work.

I felt to add a bit more: imagine for example you loose a career you absolutely loved, imagine loosing a soul mate or your own child. Would you expect to be happy and joyful then? Would that be authentic? It's highly likely that we're going to experience an emotional roller coaster around such things. And to me, it would be entirely right and natural to do so.

But at my core, I would know with one ending lies a beginning. That my child or my partner have not truly died but moved on to a place that serves them now. This truth comes from the place of absoluteness so it's highly possible to express the emotional roller coaster yet be centred in the eye of the storm. To me, this is true Enlightenment.

Anyway, how did we get from veganism to this? Perhaps we should re-engage the vegan spirituality inquiry. Anybody anything else to add?

Chris

OK... to re-engage the vegan spirituality inquiry I feel its through this animal food process that we are invited to go inward and feel even more our connection to all things, to go beyond attachment and feed us the internal energy we may need and allow the natural processes of our being to shine more and more and more... I basicly live off Organic cereals w fat free soy milk, and I promise its been absolutely splendid, it gives a vibration inside that is quite wonderful, and I feel honored to honor life internally just likes Lei's cartoon post on this thread..
Bill

Just a quicky as to be honest I am not interested in trying to prove a point, I was only relaying some different experiences that some may not be aware of.
Strange that some may believe that I am not coming from the heart with my experiences, feelings and own bodily observations.
I did actually study nutrition Lei so wouldn't say I am totally un informed but then as Bill says nutrition is not the subject here....
Which brings me to statistics hum!!!! Yep there are lots in all directions as I have said before.
So where do you live Lei?
Have you tried yourself to grow the nuts, seeds and fruit etc that you recommend?
What kind of solution or recommendation would you offer to Inuits or people living in the desert, Siberia or even the native americans?
Just curious thats all??
Anyway what you read in books about this study and that one I would say is not coming from a personal experience. I infact was just offerening an alternative view based on the evidence I have experienced first hand and how my body reacts.

I do feel that there are a few who may believe that what they are saying is the one and only truth but well you will always get those people.
I am totally comfortable with my decisions and observations and the choices I am making right now.
and you never know stranded on an island I might want to eat my friends who knows...
So are plants less important than animals then Bill???? I did ask that already but you never commented? Even then whatever decision you make will only be your truth.
I truely don't think because anyone is vegan they can claim or decide they are more spiritual or evolved than those who have a different truth. After all you are not them and what you are offering is just an opinion nothing more.
I don't feel the need to be the next Jesus or Buddha I am Marion and happy to be that. I am living my life to the best of my ability at this time.

Anyway still no one seems to comment on the fact that Buddha and Jesus ate meat but hey I am sure someone will have a good explanation about why that was different like it is for the mongolians, Inuits and people living in some remote jungle.
Anyway bon continuation as I have said quite enough

Just a quickie Marion - how do you know the Buddha and Jesus ate meat? Is that something you've read do you mean? Or is it something you explored in your consciousness, connected with them directly and got the knowing from there? Because unless you have, I don't feel it's really right to be making such statements. I noticed you wrote it before, but felt to let it go. But since it came up again, I felt compelled to respond this time.

Chris

Yes you are right Chris I don't know for sure but I do believe it could be so.
Do you know if they did or did not?
Its not the only question I asked but the point I was trying to make was "does it make you a less spiritual being, culture or race if you do eat meat?"
I guess though there just isn't really a place on this forum for anyone with alternative experiences, views or feelings.
Thats ok though I don't feel the need to prove anything, and I am sure most people who really take the time to read and understand what I was trying to say will know what I was offering.

I do find it interesting that I seem to have pressed so many buttons though??
Why some people feel the need to hit out at me and to try and change my truth? Or make judgements on me without knowing anything about me?
To me that might be a more important question.
There have been a few statements made by others that I would have thought did not fit in the openhand way.
I wonder why these are not challenged?
Think it is best to let you vegans all chat nicely amongst yourselves and I will get on with something more enjoyable
Sorry so many of you missed the point.
Regards Marion

Marion I would apologize if Ive sent out any bad vibes because I didnt intend that at all.. ...but your questions are all, "They say this and some say that.." Well we all have grown up in this world were "They All say this and some say that..." so the point is that only you can go inward and feel for your answers. Im sorry but I personally only have my shared experience to offer, I dont mean to offend.. But if your feeling towards consuming meat is to do so then whats the issue? You have to follow your flow... if its nutritional info you really want there are more better sources out there, (Although Leis vid is wowing) but this thread was initially about the vegan and spirituality which is more our shared experiences of what it means for us and how weve found joyous ways to live with these feelings and share them so we can evolve as well...
Have you checked out the Trinity's Conscious Kitchen section on here ? I am so picky I dont eat hardly anything in any of the recipes and yet its soooo cool and fun to read that Im sure it would give you a huge boost...
GL MARION !
Love
Bill

This is so well stated Chris! I totally loved this little detour from the topic.

And Marion, I don't think you've pushed anyone's buttons at all, neither do I think anyone is trying to hit on you, it could just be your personal feelings.
I do feel quite strongly about a plant based diet, I wanted to share a few statistics people may not be aware of, that's all. Also I do not think the China study is The Truth, but it offers a very very powerful perspective for us to look at things!

So where do you live Lei?
Have you tried yourself to grow the nuts, seeds and fruit etc that you recommend?
What kind of solution or recommendation would you offer to Inuits or people living in the desert, Siberia or even the native americans?

I'm not really recommending anything by offering the statistics, but I do think that people should be better informed to make more conscious decisions. I have not tried to grow my own food, I live in a city in China and it's very difficult for me to do that here. This has probably also been my biggest regret, I've actually been thinking about self-sufficiency and the possibility of doing permaculture in China for a few years, but it's quite difficult as I have no experience in these things at all and feel quite conflicted as it would take up too much of my time and energy, also I wasn't sure if I really want to live in China for very long term. But I have been a raw vegan for over two years and have lived a quite frugal and eco-friendly lifestyle.

Lei

I kinda guessed Lei that you might not have had much experience in the self sufficiency background. I hope one day you get that opportunity to truely make your decisions base on reality not statistics.
What more can i say on here. ( well probably lots actually but i won't) Maybe yourself and Bill would like to go back and read some of the posts again, it might save you offering me your advice on things I have already covered from real life experiences and things I might actually be slightly more informed about. Well in my truth anyway as that is what it comes down too I guess.
Good luck !!!!

Awe that's such a shame that you've reacted that way Marion - I'm sure everyone here loves you deeply and welcomes your robust exploration of meat eating. As I review the posts above, I don't get the sense anyone has judged you at all. They've simply responded to your postings and questions. Perhaps then, there's a part of you judging yourself?

You ask if I know that Jesus and the Buddha abstained from eating meat. Well yes, I do have a direct knowing. But I don't feel it would be right for me to speak on another's behalf - that's where so much misunderstanding, misinformation and judgment can tend to creep in.

I should also reiterate something I said earlier...

"I think it's also essential to say that Trin and myself do not promote veganism. In fact, we don't promote anything!!! The Openhand way, is, and always has been, about empowering people to find their own truth. Full stop. If in some way you've felt judged by any of the work we've put forwards, I'd say there's something to look at for yourself."

I feel also to go further. Personally I do not consider myself as vegan. Right now, yes, my diet is to a large part raw vegan, but that's because the circumstances I find myself in allow it and for me, I know through direct experience, that enables me to access the highest energetic sensitivity. If anyone was to ask me what I was, I would say "I'm a conscious eater".

Also, there's a very important reason I don't personally promote veganism widely. I see humanity coming to a very difficult and turbulent transition. I see climate change wiping out a good deal of the earth's arable land. We also have zillions of grazing animals. I can see a transition where people are living in local communities in a self-sustaining way WITH animals: animals providing some protein and fat in exchange for being looked after and nurtured - I see that also as a way for people to process their karma due to the widespread exploitation of animals (it's fascinating for example that a rabbit found its way to living with us - considering my survival course story earlier in the thread!).

Personally, given the choice, I would abstain from consuming all animal produce, but I accept that compromises will have to be made in the difficult times ahead.

Chris

Thanks Chris I appreciate your imput. Not sure that your deductions are correct in all you have said as I personally didn't think I had reacted at all??
Maybe I will look at that and see, although to be honest I have spent all night looking at it and feeling inside so I am pretty sure I feel ok with where I am with it.
I would say though there does seem like a fair amount of energy attatched to some posts directed at me.
How much attention have people paid to what I had actually wrote and where it was coming from?
Strange how words come across on paper when there is no tone or feeling in the voice being offered and how people often read what they really might want to hear or believe???
I think you and Trin and some others know me well enough to have a fair idea of where i am coming from with what I was offering. Mind you its a while since I have seen you all and a lot has happening in my bizarre and interesting journey.
I am sure that anyone who read my posts would agree that at no time do I promoted or agreed with, participate in or make decisions based on Commercial farming.

Lei said "I have to say that I feel the decision to eat meat based on a blood type theory cannot be possibly coming from the heart."
I didn't actually say my personal decision to eat meat was anything to do with a blood group diet but again that is something that was heard.
Then she said " I feel quite strongly that people should to be better informed on nutrition and health and many other aspects of eating a plant based diet, it's simply too important for our collective evolution."
I would say it sounds like Lei feels that myself or others who don't share her view or idea may not be well enough informed to make my their own decisions based on their personal health and experiences or living conditions??
I am glad Chris that you did point some things out that I was really trying to get to the core with in some of what I was saying and what has been going through my mind for most of the night.
Maybe you have a better way with words than me
Then maybe not?? cause maybe Jo Blogsy down the road who thinks a spade is a shovel ( I love that Lesley Thanks)might not quite get what you are on about sometimes but they might get what a mere mortal such as myself is on about.
I guess we all have our place here then don't we

Hey Chris that's very very fascinating perspectives! thanks for sharing

Marion, I do think you've probably taken things a little personally.

You say..
Lei said "I have to say that I feel the decision to eat meat based on a blood type theory cannot be possibly coming from the heart."
I didn't actually say my personal decision to eat meat was anything to do with a blood group diet but again that is something that was heard.

Yes I knew it's not about you, I was just expressing my personal feeling that people who do that cannot be coming from the heart.

I would say it sounds like Lei feels that myself or others who don't share her view or idea may not be well enough informed to make my their own decisions based on their personal health and experiences or living conditions??

No that's not what Im saying at all. I specifically said it's a plant based diet rather than a vegan diet. But I do in general feel that eating less animal foods is ideal!

You're very right in saying that I have no experience in self-sufficiency and growing my own food. I'm not underestimating the challenges of that at all, actually that's one of the main reasons I feel very reluctant to go into permaculture in China, there's practically no body is doing it here in this vast country and I have ZERO experience, it would take up lots of time and energy and many years of effort to build a project. But I do know the permaculture model is very viable and makes far more sense than anything else I know.

Lei

Indeed we each do have our place Marion, although as I see it, humanity's options are fast focusing. Most people are not really aware of my role and position here - what I've come here to do. In the past, the role has been called "gatekeeper" although personally I really don't like the term at all and don't use it because it can sound aloof, controlling and judgmental - which in fact the role is not at all.

I consider my role more as a bridge between paradigms. I'm able to live in two worlds simultaneously. I experience and know the 5th Dimension whilst being embodied in the 3rd. The centre of my consciousness rests in the 4th. My role is about empowering people to see their higher truth so that they may raise their vibration and follow their destiny into the higher paradigm. In that role, there are three things I'd like to add to the inquiry...

1. I don't believe in prophecy because the future is determined by the choices we make in each moment. However, what I can say, is that according to the choices humanity is currently making, if the energy continues in the direction it is, then in the not-too-distant future, the surface of the Earth in the 3rd Dimension will likely become largely uninhabitable to human life (and much other animal life too).
2. Humanity has been yearning for a solution to eons of energetic manipulation, control and disharmony. And without fully realising it, has caused this karma by its initial manipulation and control of the earth, plant & animal kingdoms in the past (including the present for some). That solution is now upon us. It is all about processing out that karma leading to Ascension into the higher paradigm.
3. Finally, I can tell you it is my heart felt conviction to say, that no one will pass into the 5th Dimension until they have fully embodied the realisations OF the 5th Dimension. And they must do that WHILST living here in the 3rd Dimension. It's like this is the testing ground for the higher realisations and harmony. In that higher paradigm, it is my personal knowing, that there is no one who has not already embodied the realisation that it is not in his/her higher interests, or the interests of all life, to consume another sentient being to sustain his/her own.

So yes, as humans we are many and varied. Yet I believe one choice will soon unite us all: do we follow our destiny or not?

Chris

Hi Lei, I guess because you addressed the post to me I did believe you were offering it for me to look at within myself.
I would still say it is a judgement based on your opinion to think that someone eating meat by following the blood type diet is not coming from the heart. They may have explored it in thier heart and feel that it is their truth. They may be able to communicate with animals and be told that it is ok to eat them. Unless you are really interested in the facts of anothers journey and how they got to the truth they hold It may not always be helpful to jump to conclusions.

Chris says "I don't feel it would be right for me to speak on another's behalf - that's where so much misunderstanding, misinformation and judgment can tend to creep in."
I agree totally with that.
I haven't spoken directly to Jesus or Buddha but I have to the Universe and to my own heart. I also have a great inner knowing and intuition that I have had since a child, which I did pushed aside for a long time and followed the path of another as I really felt that mine was not justified and that I was surely not good enough to know these things myself.
However thankfully that has brought me to a point of trusting myself again from a totally different perspective and with renewed respect for my own concious decisions and intuitions.
I would also like to call myself a concious eater I would even go as far as to say my eating is often extremely more concious than many a vegan or vegetarian I have met on my journey.
My love and respect of animals goes beyond words and has done all my life. I have a connection with animals that goes much deeper than I could ever explain.
I could share some amazing stories of my commitment, love and respect for nature and the animal kingdom but I don't actually feel the need to do that.
I am sure Chris and Trin are aware of my love of animals, after all if they were in doubt I don't think they would have entrusted bunny Brie with me, incase I put her in the pot!!

I agree permaculture is defo the way forward which is why I went and did a permaculture course, I wanted to experience it first hand and not just read about it in a book and get the information based on anothers opinion.

Chris has made some excellent points in his last post that really do resonate with me and what I really explored last night.
My offering here is to everyone who may want to explored other ideas. It is also based on some things that have been brought to the fore by a friend lately. I am certainly not offering this with judgement or lack of respect but just some things for those who would like to explore.
I will start with something Lei said just because it brought it closer to me for exploration in my heart.

Lei said "It's absolutely clear that the single easiest thing a person can do to help save the environment is to give up meat and dairy. This will free up millions of acres now used for animal agriculture that could then be replanted with trees."

Now I am going to say this with some humour and some lightness that might offend but it is how I chose to share it, and I am starting to find the constant back and fore a bit dull.
So here it is " In this lovely world where we have all decided to become vegan and are planting trees all around us, I ponder the thought of what might happen to all the cows and sheep and animals man has bred and made so dependant on him.
I wonder how long they would survive in the wild?
Is is acceptable for us to abondon them to the harsh realities of nature?
After all they did not choose to be here? Or did they?
Man created their reality didn't he? or maybe he didn't?
What an interesting thought? Does a cow choose their reality?
Do they incarnate in a circumstance to experience certain things?
Did they chose to be part of the food chain?
An intesting scenario..but I am sure if we all turn up the colour on our rose tinted spectacles we might just be able to pretend they don't exist. We would not then have to concern ourselves with how they might suffer or die just as long as we are not eating them!!!
Or maybe we can adopt a cow each. We could move it into our flat in London. Maybe we would even teach it to sing or dance. Wow what a concept we could make enough money to pay for our imported goods like tofu, soya beans and oh don't forget the vegimite for some B12!!!!
Mind you some of us might chose to spend the money on the cow itself and buy it some fodder as there is no grazing left for the poor wee things. Some silly human planted it all up with trees. Mind you the bulk of the money might need to go towards the cost of a therapist or a coaching session for her to be able to look at the issues she has developed round abandonment and no longer being of use to Man.
I won't apologise for my lightness or humour on the subject as the scenario made me giggle and I wanted to help some very serious people maybe giggle too
We can often get caught up in the pain and suffering of the world but please don't think we can change it all with some quick fix solution.
We can only strive to be the best WE can with what WE know and learn.
We can only feel into our own hearts and find our own truth and as long as we feel happy with that I think that in itself is making the world a better place.
Love and much lightness
Marion xxxx

Just had an e-mail from someone who has been following the thread and said "Erm, isn't what Chris says below what you've been saying all along????????

Chris you said "Also, there's a very important reason I don't personally promote veganism widely. I see humanity coming to a very difficult and turbulent transition. I see climate change wiping out a good deal of the earth's arable land. We also have zillions of grazing animals. I can see a transition where people are living in local communities in a self-sustaining way WITH animals: animals providing some protein and fat in exchange for being looked after and nurtured -"

But I guess thats why you are a gatekeeper and I am not Chris they might find it far more acceptable to come from you..
Anyway really really must go now.

Thank you Chris for explaining your role here, it's very illuminating indeed!

Marion,

you say..
Lei said "It's absolutely clear that the single easiest thing a person can do to help save the environment is to give up meat and dairy. This will free up millions of acres now used for animal agriculture that could then be replanted with trees."

That's not what I said, it's quoted from the linked article. I don't know whether it's viable, practical or even possible for most people to completely to give up meat and dairy, and also there're always exceptional situations (as in Lesley's case) that eating meat may actually serve our evolution, but by and large I do resonate strongly with sentiment in the above quote. But again that's just my personal feeling.

Chris you said "Also, there's a very important reason I don't personally promote veganism widely. I see humanity coming to a very difficult and turbulent transition. I see climate change wiping out a good deal of the earth's arable land. We also have zillions of grazing animals. I can see a transition where people are living in local communities in a self-sustaining way WITH animals: animals providing some protein and fat in exchange for being looked after and nurtured -"

But Chris also said: I see that also as a way for people to process their karma due to the widespread exploitation of animals (it's fascinating for example that a rabbit found its way to living with us - considering my survival course story earlier in the thread!).

I see this as extremely insightful, I'm always impressed by the depth of Chris's perspectives.

Much love,

Lei

I actually do find that hilarious.
Again Lei that proves the very point I was making.
Quoting someone elses experience or beliefs is not really that helpful.
So again you have totally missed the point but God bless your cotton socks.

Yes I was just quoting and copying, but sometimes I just couldn't help it when I find something really well stated!!!

God bless you too!

Lots of love,

Lei

Another vitally important observation to add to the inquiry, is that of the levels of inner toxicity we hold, how this can skew a 'heart-felt-pull' and derail us from the path of purification and higher truth.

Frequently I've observed quite toxic people having negative reactions to diet purification only then to stop because of the symptoms they experience. Because they either get confused, lose courage or the will, the mind interprets the 'cold-turkey' as 'bad' and it becomes an excuse for 'jumping off the wagon'.

To give you an example from my own personal journey...
From time to time I used to get mouth ulcers after workshops. If this happened, my body would usually direct me to the local delhi to buy some smelly blue cheese - the smellier the better. I didn't have a clue why at the time, and it didn't feel congruent with my 'vegan' consciousness, but it was definitely a heart-felt-pull backed up by synchronicity and above all else, it worked! Within 24hrs the mouth ulcers had normally gone. It was truly profound and miraculous.

Now I could easily just have assumed it was right and balanced for me to continue eating animal protein. But the quiet inner voice wouldn't let me rest. So I asked the universe to explain why. It took several years of observation/contemplation/realisation before the answer finally came (along with a plethora of other dietary realisations). During workshops especially, I process a great deal of energy - I'm infusing higher consciousness into the workspace through my body. This generates a huge amount of adrenaline, the excess of which, was being deposited in my stomach thus generating acid which in turn broke down the stomach lining, and with that, the natural friendly bacteria. Replacing it with animal protein was a powerful way of 'hoovering up' the excess acid and replacing the bacteria.

I've now learned to balance the inflows of energy I experience by ensuring that I eat high degrees of alkaline generating foods (grapes/celery/almonds/grapefruit). Plus it also required a deeper sensitivity to the flows of energy - to be able to turn them up and down in a more sophisticated way. In so doing, I've restored the natural bacteria and lining of the stomach so I don't get the ulcer problem anymore. And so now, even though I was once guided to eat blue cheese, I don't need it anymore.

I've seen similar dynamics and effects in many people working to purify their system. And frequently, quite a few people turn back when the going gets tough (as sometimes it can). What's really needed is to dispense judgment that this is a 'good' or 'bad' experience, then without needing to change it, go deeper and deeper into the current experience and explore why?

Chris

This kind of experience I can truely relate too and value the personal journey that you are offering.
I remember Chris when we followed your journey on line when you did the mucoid plaque detox.
It helped me to really explore and to go on to do something I never believed I could do. A 6 day fast.
It really taught me to pay attention to how my body speaks to me.
My life journey Is a slightly different one to most (as you know) Moving about and experiencing different lifestyles etc really helps me feel how different situations can lead to what sits true for me.
I certain would not previously have had the tools or knowledge that I have gathered now that may be of great help to many in our turbulant times to come. I feel privalaged and honered to be gathering these golden nougats or information and even if I can only help one starfish (starfish story) at a time then maybe that is my path.

Yeah I love the starfish parable!!

A girl walks along a beach, throwing starfish back into the sea, when she meets an old man. The men asks girl why she is throwing starfish into the ocean. She says: 'The sun is up an dthe tide is going out, if I don't throw them back they will all die.' The old man says, 'But there's a whole beach and it runs for miles. You can't possibly make a difference.' The girl picks up a starfish and throws it back in the sea. 'It made a difference to that one.'

from 'Business Stripped Bare', Richard Branson

Hi Chris,

It's interesting that you say "In that higher paradigm, it is my personal knowing, that there is no one who has not already embodied the realisation that it is not in his/her higher interests, or the interests of all life, to consume another sentient being to sustain his/her own." I do wonder if souls still need to eat food at all on 5th and higher dimensions, I'd imagine they still have to assimilate some form of energy but would be very different from the way we eat food here. Also I'm really curious what sorts of activities do beings do on those higher paradigms, do they for example play sports, garden and have ceremonies like getting married etc.. ?? also do they reproduce like all mammals do here on earth?

I know this is off topic but Im just incredibly inquisitive about how life is like on higher dimensions.

Thanks

Lei

Hey Chris, I am not trying to question your truth as i respect yours as I am sure you respect mine.
I would really value your imput though and to know what your truth is on somethings that do not sit quite right with me at the moment..

You wrote
"In that higher paradigm, it is my personal knowing, that there is no one who has not already embodied the realisation that it is not in his/her higher interests, or the interests of all life, to consume another sentient being to sustain his/her own."

When you say sentient being what are you personally referring too? The wikipedia of sentinent beings can mean different things. I just wasn't sure what it meant for you?
I will enclose this as i felt it may help people see there can be different interpretation of sentient...

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive. The term is used in science and philosophy, and in the study of artificial intelligence. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to Western philosophers as "qualia". In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care.
Sentient beings is a technical term in Buddhist discourse. Broadly speaking, it denotes beings with consciousness or sentience or, in some contexts, life itself.[1] Specifically, it denotes the presence of the five aggregates, or skandhas.[2] While distinctions in usage and potential subdivisions or classes of sentient beings vary from one school, teacher, or thinker to another—and there is debate within some Buddhist schools as to what exactly constitutes sentience and how it is to be recognized[citation needed]—it principally refers to beings in contrast with buddhahood. That is, sentient beings are characteristically not enlightened, and are thus confined to the death, rebirth, and suffering characteristic of Saṃsāra.[3] However, Mahayana Buddhism simultaneously teaches (in the Tathagatagarbha doctrine particularly) that sentient beings also contain Buddha-nature—the intrinsic potential to transcend the conditions of samsara and attain enlightenment, thereby becoming a Buddha.[4]
"Those who greatly enlighten illusion are Buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about enlightenment are sentient beings."

In Mahayana Buddhism, it is to sentient beings that the Bodhisattva vow of compassion is pledged. Furthermore, and particularly in Tibetan Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism, all beings (including plant life and even inanimate objects or entities considered "spiritual" or "metaphysical" by conventional Western thought) are or may be considered sentient beings.[5][6]

So Does that then mean that (human beings)..must only live on Prana to be able ascend to the 5th dimension.
Does that mean there are no animals that eat meat able to ascend? or is that different as they do not have a conscious choice.
What about indigionous tribes that rely on meat for survival, can they not ascend or have they never ascended before?
I would imagine that would have to be the case if all life is sentient?
Can we honestly believe these cultures are not spiritual?
Or that a vegan is more spiritual than someone who lives a very concious non commercial extremely low meat diet?

So then before that you wrote

"I can see a transition where people are living in local communities in a self-sustaining way WITH animals: animals providing some protein and fat in exchange for being looked after and nurtured - I see that also as a way for people to process their karma due to the widespread exploitation of animals (it's fascinating for example that a rabbit found its way to living with us - considering my survival course story earlier in the thread!).

Personally, given the choice, I would abstain from consuming all animal produce, but I accept that compromises will have to be made in the difficult times ahead.

Does this then mean that when the shit hits the fan (for want of a better expression) that because compromise will have to be made for survival in your truth and mine, does that mean then it will be ok as we had no choice if we want to live, so then we become like animals who are hunting from instinct for survival and so may ascend anyway. Or will we just not ascend if we decided to keep ourselves alive.?
I really am struggling to understand this one so I would be really happy to have some help.
Also another thing that I find hard to get is If we were created by a unity conciousness or (God)and it was intended for us to eat a vegan raw food diet why did we incarnate with a system that requires vitamin b12?
That I am hugely curious about too, as I am pretty sure they didn't have Health and Harmony down the high St to provide suppliments in the time of Jesus either..

I am sure there will be some interesting views here too?
Love Marion

Hi Marion,

You know I've often been accused of being too intellectual for some, it's been inferred several times in this thread. Actually though, that's quite unfair given the incredible exactitude I've applied through my awakened life at finding a vocabulary to describe something which in truth, is beyond words. In many ways, I've been 'de-intellectualised' by my 'training'. If you read my posts, you'll notice they always tend to use pretty simple vocabulary.

But yes, some find it hard to understand what I say. Or they themselves will go into the intellect about what I say. This happens because the energy which flows through the words is not intended for everyone. They are keys that people pick up at the right time for them - when an issue they're dealing with is beginning to germinate.

So what's getting challenging in this exchange (from my perspective), is that you're popping into and out of the intellect. For example, you ask me...

"Does this then mean that when the shit hits the fan (for want of a better expression) that because compromise will have to be made for survival in your truth and mine, does that mean then it will be ok as we had no choice if we want to live

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but the question seems quite clearly to be coming from the intellect. It seems to be requiring a process of deduction to make a decision on something that hasn't yet happened. Again, I'm really not trying to push buttons here, but the question would tend to show that the questioner wasn't totally used to being in the moment - beyond mind - and making spontaneous higher truth choices based on the lay of the consciousness landscape in the moment. Or at least in these particular circumstances it would tend to imply the questioner was popping into and out of intellect.

You ask...

"If we were created by a unity conciousness or (God)and it was intended for us to eat a vegan raw food diet why did we incarnate with a system that requires vitamin b12?"

Yet again it demonstrates the point above. You're projecting intention onto 'Unity Consciousness' (which it doesn't have), and you're using a form of logic to generate a simplified question for a situation which cannot be so simplified.

So here's something very interesting indeed for you Marion - if you truly want to dig deep. You can either seek to engage with me at an intellectual level, which I will tend to avoid, or you could project at me, which I might tend to mirror back. Or, you could receive very carefully what I'm saying and potentially realise that not all your choices are indeed coming from the soul. That potentially you're forming intellectual opinions - 'judgments' - about particular situations and being directed by those. And in particular, where those choices relate to food. My intuition tells me quite strongly that you're dealing with quite powerful karmic issues in this area. The vision I see from the past life is that of mal-nourishment.

This comes from the heart, with unconditional love.

Chris

The lesson here Marion is following your feeling, your pull, your truth, as opposed to following a PARTICULAR WAY.. Lesley doesnt really eat meat but she did, because she was open enough to go beyond her mind/ways and FEEL the guiding pull for experience to evolve putting aside all questions to be in THE MOMENT... HOW AWESOME LESLEY ! (Im only now realising the depths of your experience.) So Marion I would say to hand yourself over, to let the universe guide you, trust me Mrs Marion let the higher mind of benevolence guide you, open your heart to the love of ALL THAT IS, give yourself to it, Im not deep like Chris but I FEEL as much/strong as anyone, I dont know anything really, I just GO BY FEELING, and I feel this now, eat meat or dont eat meat, it doesnt matter as much as that you see the lesson and learn to OPEN and ACCEPT and TRUST what is and trust that whatever you feel that the pull is guiding you to higher evolving, trust you will get your nutrition, trust you will know whats right, you already do just listen to your heart, there is no set pattern to truth thats what is so exciting/energizing about walking the path, ITS SO MAGICAL ! I am only a few days into barely glimpsing the edges of it and opening to it has been more beautiful and loving that I ever imagined ... WOW LESLEY you are like a SUPERHERO ... thanks Im all lit up again...
So please re-joyce Marion, to be on this amazing incredible thread at this time that we all share, as we all share our experiences of our journeys to what awaits us next...
Bill

Shiny mirrors always a good one.
Thank for that.:-)This is where everyone gets stopped in their tracks normally I believe???
To be perfectly honest though Chris if you don't mind me saying I feel that maybe if you believe I am making judgements you need to address why you feel the need to make that judgement about me?
I do not claim to be an evolved being with out question and I personally find my questions slightly more interesting and possible inline with the soul than wondering if I can play golf in the 5th dimension.
Mind you I don't really expect to ascend anytime soon.
Far too many earthy things to be doing here to be honest.
I might be far better placed volunteering, offering my earthly knowledge or planting some veg.
I am hoping I can be of service to those that might be having difficulty with the practical side of life.
I have a very different role I believe. Yours may have a name that you can talk about. Maybe mine will be the bridger... as I feel my purpose is more inline with bridging the gap between different levels of society in an outreach way. You reach a specific audience but there are people who cannot make that leap directly.
No buttons pushed here Chris as I say I am comfortable with where i am at right now and to be honest intellect was where I got confused for 2 years trying to understand what you were meaning about intuition when I had been using it naturally pretty much all my life .
So if you thought I was in intellect I will do my best to hop right out of there. As that is the last place I want to be.
Sorry for the questions will not ask any more...
Maybe I will just get back to meditaion, and thanks Bill for your lovely advice but believe me you really don't get me at all to be offering this. I do appreciate the fact that you care enough to do so though, bless you.
I seem to have spent rather a lot of time on here today.
Not like me at all to do that but I felt the pull and followed it.
Being outside in nature is more my thing so will love you all and leave you and bid you farewell.
Much Love to you Chris and I do mean that from the heart as I truely believe in the work you are doing.
Marion

Ty for this particular post...

I think the exchange on diet we've had demonstrates perfectly the integral nature of beingness. We simply cannot separate one thing from another. The physical body is influenced by the emotional body which is in turn influenced by the mind, which in turn is influenced by our karma. Pull on one thread, and you pull on them all. Deny one thread, and we deny the opportunity to explore what's really being presented.

Best wishes to you Marion on your continuing journey.

With love

Chris

I find this subject to tend to go into a kind of "are we allowed to" or "is it intended by god/natural to" direction, wich - to me - misses the point. In the discussions I had in person and I do observe on my website I am always stunned about the level of agression that is often displayed from "bothe sides". This seems to really challege some deep beliefs!

For me the vegan diet just happened, it wasn't even really a choice, my vegetarism just moved there. I turned vegetarian as a child after seeing a slaughtering, all my family were and are meat eaters.

I experienced in myself how charged this topic is and how I would get angry and desperate in discussions about it, if I take it with the mind and try to make my personal feeling into a rule. I still cant understand how anyone can possibly eat meat, but even if I consider it to be cruel and injust I am completely relaxed with it now, accepting it as a personal choice. The child of my girlfriend (5) gets meat when she asks for it, even if we are both vegetarian. It is a personal choice.

And to me it is an emotion/soul thing. The mind has no business here. It is not convincing anybody about anything. It is about feeling your own truth.

But I do think everybody should expose himself to the energy of slaughtering at least once to feel what is chosen.

And as always it is good to ask yourself: Can I be totally at peace with the opinion of another, even if I do not share it? If not: Why? What does it move in me?

David

Hi David,

That're some really great points you made!

I too feel there are lots of judgmentalism in the vegan and vegetarian community. I have also often felt quite ambivalent whether I should be more vocal about veganism as it does tend to push lots of people's buttons. But I feel in general it's a positive thing that people get more vocal about it (even if there're some judgements and negativities involved), it is simply too important a subject matter to be ignored given how seriously society has been misled by the industries and governments, and how much the food we eat is connected to all other fabrics of our reality, soil erosion, water shortage, the prevalence of obesity and chronic illnesses, the near collapse of health care system, the deceptions of the drug and food industry and the deliberate dumbing down of the society etc... I think once society start to wake up to and become conscious of the foods they eat, they'll quickly start to wake up to all sorts of other things.

I also feel like to mention that in the last part of 'the China study', titled 'Why haven't you heard this before?', the author (who had been in the system for decades and was involved with policy making) gives a very detailed description of how the US government and industries collide together to mislead the public. It is really quite fascinating and illuminating!

Lei

Hi Marion,

I personally find my questions slightly more interesting and possible inline with the soul than wondering if I can play golf in the 5th dimension.

I don't feel it's trivial at all to wonder what folks are doing on higher dimensions. I mean if we're to ascend to 5D don't you want to know how life's like there?? but maybe I should have probably asked about this on a different thread, it is very off topic here, never mind.. if Chris want to answer that I'm happy to create another discussion.

Lei

Hi David,

Yes thanks for a valuable contribution to the thread. Likewise for me, there was a certain point I reached - a deep realisation - that consuming animals did not serve me anymore. In fact I'd go so far as to say, as things stand for me right now, I would much rather starve than take the life of a sentient being to sustain my own.

But this raises a very interesting point that Marion brought up earlier. Something that often gets raised. It is that of indigenous cultures like the North American Indians. So I had said...

"it is my personal knowing, that there is no one (in the New Paradigm) who has not already embodied the realisation that it is not in his/her higher interests, or the interests of all life, to consume another sentient being to sustain his/her own."

To which Marion had replied...

"What about indigenous tribes that rely on meat for survival, can they not ascend or have they never ascended before? Can we honestly believe these cultures are not spiritual?"

For me, my earlier statement is most definitely my truth. Yet I can see that a soul might be born into a particular environment where either there is no other choice to consume meat to survive or, it is a mutually respecting culture in which they are living.

So a North American Indian might have reached the evolutionary point to respect all life to the point that he could see eating sentient life would not be compatible with his further evolution. And my point was that this needed to be an "embodied realisation". But to me that does not mean he would not necessarily eat an animal in the circumstances in which he found himself. It would all depend on his role within the grander scheme of things.

To me, Lesley's original post explored this very powerfully. It's possible that she was connecting to an ancient energy and realisation that she may well have made in the past. That's very different from simple weighing up a bunch of factors based on a fairly limited exploration.

I think the film Avatar portrayed this exceptionally well. Every action - even taking a life - had its place, PROVIDING it was beyond individual egoic intent or desensitisation, and when in service to the natural flow of the universe. But that has to be an embodied realisation and expression of consciousness - not simply a logical deduction of various factors or potentially the denial of actual motivation.

That's why I would say to anyone who is on an evolutionary path and still eating meat, fine, but then get involved in the slaughter of the animals you eat yourself, so that you truly know how you really feel about it.

It's around such sensitive issues that we really par the wheat from the chaff - where the fine edge of identity is peeled away. That's why it's so important we bring these issues to light and not disappear off when the going gets tricky and uncomfortable or its not heading in the direction we might want it to. That's why if we feel such a powerful heart-felt conviction, it's important to speak out - no matter what flak we might then take.

To me, this is where karma is truly resolved and evolution facilitated.

Chris

As a follow on to my previous post, I'd say there is a very interesting dynamic happening in this thread which I believe is indicative of the wider contemplations within spiritual circles in general.

Whilst most modern human have a good deal of anatomical commonality, the same cannot be said of the souls incarnated as humans. Or rather there is a majority who have incarnated many, many times in human form on this planet, but there is another group from elsewhere which is incarnating as quite a powerful wave right now. These have been termed the "Indigos" - although personally I don't like the term and the actual phenomenon it relates to is more widely spread than just a handful of so called 'star-children'.

There are hundreds of thousands of such 'star-people' who have come with a very special purpose: to help humanity process the karma of manipulation and control which has derailed them for so long and kept them languishing in this earthly eddy current. These star-people have a very powerful catalytic energy. They're helping to break down the Opposing Consciousness and thereby leveling the playing field so that more humans can continue their journey, evolve and ascend.

To those souls who come from 'elsewhere', it frequently seems abhorrent to consume another sentient being to sustain his/her own life. However, for those who've frequently incarnated here, it probably seems more natural to do so. Perhaps this then fuels much of the seemingly intractable debate around the whole issue?

I think at the end of the day, it's incumbent upon us to all work to understand and empathise with one-another, where we're at, where we're coming from, and at the same time, realising we all have a common objective and destiny.

Chris

Now thats going BEYOND DEEP... wow...
Awesome a play by play from beyond...
Bill

Whilst most modern human have a good deal of anatomical commonality, the same cannot be said of the souls incarnated as humans.

Chris, I'm not sure if I agree with that.

I see certain star souls could wake up earlier than the rest, but anatomically I believe we're pretty similar. Most cultures in the world have traditionally always lived on a plant based diet. For example, chronic diseases like diabetes, cancer and heart diseases etc are literally unheard of in China decades ago, back then people were very poor, they could hardly afford to eat meat and dairy, the most illnesses people had were related to poverty, poor living condition and malnutrition. Yet today these chronic diseases are prevalent in China as the country moved onto a diet involving lots of meat and dairy.

Also as much as I resonate that people should inquire deeply into the choices in relation to the food they eat, I see no reason people have to spend a lot of soul searching to reach a conclusion on whether they should move onto a plant based diet. To me the problem we have has more to do with disinformation than anything else. It's clear to me as the day that we (or at least most of humans) should move onto a plant based diet. Just look at the world today, we use 70% of our agriculture land worldwide to grow crops to feed livestock, this leads to tremendous amount of water and energy waste and pollution. It's utter insanity! The truth is society wouldn't even be able to afford to consume so much meat if farming were not so much subsidized by governments. It's just common sense we cannot carry on doing that anymore.

Personally I think it's really very very simple, what works best for our heath should also serve the animals and the planet, there shouldn't be any contradictions. If it has to be so complicated we'd never be able to understand it, but fortunately it's really not! Of course, there're always individual differences, certain people will need more of one particular type of food than another, but I believe these individual needs should also be met mostly within the plant food group.

Lei

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying Lei. You said...

"I see certain star souls could wake up earlier than the rest, but anatomically I believe we're pretty similar."

That's exactly what I'm saying!

Words huh?!

Back to the drawing board.

Chris

Yes. I heard a few stories like Leslys. I also ate meat once last year, just to test what it would do with me and wether I turned it into and *ism.

I know some very powerful healers who were vegan or even raw for 25 years of their journey and actually started eating meat after a serious breakthough in their development, claiming it is a purely mind-based thing and meat eating is totally ok from the standpoint of the source. They told me about very similar experiences in eating meat like the one Lesly described.

(Interesstigly one of them just told me he was instructed by his guides to turn vegan, in order to adopt to the coming energy changes, before meat was recommended by the guides, because it helped grounding and balancing the high-energy healing work)

I still only see it to be a heart-choice, I would not dare to make any general statement about it. But I also would not accept an opinion from someone eating meat who has not killed his food and at least tried another diet to have an impression of the changes that it very tangibly effects in the energy field. ( at least for me, I can only speak of veggie - vegan change)

David

Yesterday I was having lunch with my university group, and there were two things:

1. I was not the only one who was 'vegan/vegetarian' (I don't like to use these terms/labels, actually, because I'm neither, I just do what I feel right at the moment), but anyway, to make things shorter.. In terms of probabilities it is rather low - to discover 2 vegans and two vegetarians at one table out of 6.

2. Tolerance - it is already not something rare, like some form of rare 'disease' , but something very common, of all kinds of reasons. And while I still sometimes encounter people who jump on this subject and begin a monologue about how not important it is, and how we should all eat whatever there is around, and about what the body needs... etc etc, but clearly these cases occur less and less. It seems that it turns to a norm that people make eliminations in their diet and become more sensitive to themselves.

Years ago people were very traditional, where I lived, but now when inviting somebody to dinner everybody ask - is there anything you don't eat? And even in recent ~5 years here in Israel, there is a revolution - like organic 'corners' in usual supermarkets, substitutes for milk and dairy products, organic shops, several 'healthy' options in menus outside, organic cafes and restaurants.

So whatever the reason is, i.e. whatever the rationalisation is, the fact remains the same - things are changing. Collectively and individually. Yap.

Another thing that I feel lately, that it is not trivial at all that I have food on my table. Everything seems so easy, when the 'machine' is working and we have everything ready on the shelves 5 minutes walk from where we live. But in the current circumstances the feeling begins to change. It was not always like this, and it can change in any moment. Not trivial.

Writing it while chewing sprouted spelt bread with soy cream and a salad...

Niam niam,
Yulia