Not always an easy one to grasp.

At the core, I believe that forgiveness is just a word created to obstruct the mind and keep us locked into the illusion. Forgiveness in its true sense is the realisation that the world and everything in it is actually an illusion, therefore there is actually nothing to really forgive anyway (may seem radical, I know).

Forgiveness is realisation of our authenitic immortal, eternal, timeless selves, and that whatever we seems to do to anyone else, we are actually doing to ourselves. This can be a bitter pill to swallow, but immensely empowering to take full responsibity of our selves. Holding resentment, or pain, because of someone else actions only serves to cause 'us' (not them!) greater suffering.

If someone placed a hot burning metal rod in your hand would you grasp it tightly whilst it burned through your hand causing immense pain, or would you simply let it go and initiate the natural healing process?

It is not about letting someone 'get away' with something, or submiting to bullying, or pretending something never happened. Forgiveness involves an authenitic letting go of all attachment to outcome of the situation, and the recognition to all situations (no matter how painful) serve to guide us back to our authentic self.

Forgiveness is a choice, to be completely OK with where we are at in any given moment. Forgiveness is actually nothing to do with anyone else. It's about being OK with ourselves. If we are accept ourselves fully then we need nothing from anyone else at all. Hence there is nothing to forgive.

My favourite quote on forgiveness is by Mark Twain

"Forgiveness is the fragrance that a violet sheds on the heel that crushed it"

that sums it all up for me. Hope this helps.

Yes, thought provoking post Trin.

You might remember I posted an article called "Is forgiveness necessary?" a while back (read here). Basically my view is that we each came here to self realise and chose all interactions with each other to help discover our inner completeness - basically that we don't need anyone to do or not do any particular thing.

If someone does something to us that causes us to loose our inner peace, then really it would pay us to be thankful to them and then seek to understand why we surrendered our peace? What was it we needed from them? Chances are it was something like love, respect or approval.

They say that to be fully enlightened is to be enlightened by all things. I take this to mean that in enlightenment we remain fully at peace with the absolute WHATEVER is happening to us. Therefore if like me, you accept that our only puurpose here is to unfold into enlightenment, then the purpose of all events is to help us be enlightened by all things.

So in my view, forgiveness is not really necessary.

Its the same when we apologise - an apology is not really necessary for the same reason. Still, I have to admit I am frequently in situations where another person expects me to apologise (if I'm late for example) and when I don't, buttons get pressed on both sides!

So how do you say 'sorry' without saying sorry?

In my view, 'sorry' is often used as an excuse for the acction with no real commitment to own the behaviour pattern and change it. So it seems to me, the best way is to make a commitment to change the behaviour that caused the discomfort in the first place.

Chris

Thank you for the insight guys!

What if it is enormous betrayal, like a war criminal? Or an abusive husband? Or a partner who goes out and sleeps around? I can see that the same principles apply whether someone tells you a little white lie, or if someone orders mass destruction of the planet... I see that everything is sent for us to self-realise, or rather I can understand that in my mind. When it comes to pratical application of it, I struggle, and feel resentment building up inside like a disease. Why is that when I do understand what you are saying, but STILL feel resenting?

Love
Turtle

Excellent point on saying sorry Chris!
Saying sorry often seems empty and devoid of meaning.
I love the idea of offering a commitment to change the behaviour, rather than an outright sentence explaining that you are sorry. It carries more meaning, and if we don't change our less than nice behaviour, it exposes our offense even more.

Hi Turtle,

Yes inner resentment is a difficult one isn't it? One of the things that I really struggle with is when people pollute mother earth or are cruel to animals. When I watch for example someone throw a cigarrette butt out of their car window, I do feel judgement arising within me - "they don't want to pollute their own space but they don't mind polluting others!"

However of course I manifested that person doing that in order to realease my attachment to it. To know that ultimately in absolute terms it just doesn't matter - that doesn't stop me from caring or even from seeking to change the action if I am pulled to.

It is a case of being able to hold the duality of being the absolute (nothing/everything) in every moment and at the same time being a finite exprression of that truth - with my own destiny and part to play.

To me resentment comes from non acceptance of this truth. It is over identification with the drama of the relative, illusionary universe. To overcome this is to seek to be awesomely okay while the transgression is taking place.

So continually remind yourself of who you really are and that nothing at all really matters. Attachments will arise but accept them for what they are and allow them to be released.

If you still find yourself struggling, then plunge yourself even more deeply into the conditions and circumstances that cause your attachment to arise. All the time, seek to be the witnesser of yourself within the event.

Even if you get sucked into various responses, that is fine providing you remain the witnesser of your actions. Be clear that you are doing nothing wrong by getting wound up - don't judge yourself - you chose these circumstances to unfold more completely so absolutely nothing is wrong.

Hope this helps!

Chris

That's so helpful, especially with the everyday button pushing, and bitchiness that goes on.

But with the bigger things it does feel like things matter to me though. What do you mean by "nothing at all really matters"? Is this not more inline with denial of the planet and everything alive on it? I don't think it is alright for people to destroy the planet, or each other. It doesn't feel right. I can't just sit back and watch as life is torn apart.

Love
Turtle

Regarding the original post about forgiveness, and wearing my analytical hat (as usual ), I find it helpful to look at the full sequence of events in this context.

1. An event happens which affects us
2. This event triggers a fear of some sort (of abandonment, danger, loss, humiliation)
3. The fear triggers an emotion in response (anger, jealousy, depression)
4. That emotion may lead us to retaliate or take revenge against the perpetrator and we may do so
5. If that is not an option, we may instead offload our anger on someone or something weaker than ourselves
6. Later, when our original hurt has eased, we often feel remorse for the subsequent retaliation, and then feel shame and guilt

Often there are a number of overlapping sequences or cycles in progress, and as a result to ourselves we can appear to be trapped in a toxic quicksand of negative emotions and dysfunctional behavioural patterns. I have been there: it is awful. So, what can we do?

Well, as Chris said, at each point in the sequence we do have the option of mentally standing back a bit and not becoming attached to the event or emotion. In some cases, this is really hard of course. I think one should fully acknowledge one's emotions, and not suppress them, but letting them dictate your actions may lead to further pain.

I hope it is clear from the above list that each event can trigger a further cascade of events: in fact, possibly the most important clue is that the initial event is almost certainly merely a consequential event of a previous cycle. The hurt done to us is in fact a consequence of an earlier hurt done to the perpetrator themselves.

So, if we want to forgive another, we must first recognize and have compassion for them. And, of course, almost by definition this is precisely the hardest thing to do because they have just hurt us: this is a great challenge.

Note that it is particularly important that you learn to forgive yourself. Strangely, too, this is often hard to do: we hold onto our guilt, blame ourselves and think we are a really bad person. Again, we need to recognise how this time it is we who suffered and couldn't help our actions, and so justly may have compassion for ourselves. This is not "letting our self off the hook", it's just seeing clearly in retrospect the almost inevitable consequences of having gone down the road of retaliation.

The objection may be made that if you don't retaliate, you will be walked over and taken advantage of. Well, everyone needs to set clear boundaries, you can work on that, and it will help. Moving on in life may be required, with a radical change in situation, if this doesn't work. As ever, listen for the subtle message in what your current reality is telling you.

Finally, the concept of "forgiveness" is arguably itself somewhat dualistic, even judgemental, as it sets us apart from the other by uniquely privileging us to grant them this boon only we can provide. Also, it may conceal a belief that the status quo ante can be restored as if nothing ever happened, which is an attachment to the past and hence unprofitable.

Really, in my opinion, where we need to get to is a state of total compassion for everyone involved, whatever the situation: this means for those who have hurt you, for yourself, and for those you have hurt, so as to break this apparently never-ending chain of suffering.

Good luck on your journey!

Hi all...newby here...

I had a horrific abusive childhood and went off the rails for ten years while I "got over myself"...however one day I woke up and thought to myself "what have I learnt" and "what good characteristics do I have" and "what if I did that to others in another life". It took me quite a few more years to work through myself but I did not repeat the cycle, I am a great mum to my child, compassionate, gentle though firm, happy in my soul, unknown to me at the time guides came to me dark moments and are now with me permanently.

I forgave my father many, many years ago and we have a very good relationship. It helped that he developed as a humanbeing and changed into a loving, grandfather. The strong emotion experienced at childhood means the memories will always came back to me but I watch them now and put them back to rest in my mind. There is no pain or anger I just cuddle the child I was and cuddle my dad who should have known better but did not.

It was not so much forgiveness but more changing my way of thinking. I had no choice it was change or suicide...the choices were limited in those days...Im glad I chose life...why...becuase I would have missed out on all the fun, beauty, love and adventure in my future....cool aye...

Naumai (prounounced No-my)
Practise strength of mind and soul
walk with confidence, speak with wisdom
and under the whole
there is knowing and protection

Big Greetings Naumai! It's wonderful to have you join us here

It sounds like you have been blessed with great inight as a direct result of your experiences. It is awesome to read your story and that your father changed and unfolded also! How inspiring. Do you think that your own accpetance and unfolding had a major part to play in his change? I mean, it often seems to me, that when we change ourselves (i.e. by the shift in the way you saw the situation), then the whole world seems to change to greet us.

Personally, I think that forgiveness in its true sense is actually just a shift in perception anyway.

Throughout my life I too have been caused to explore the light through darkness and suffering. These 'awful' (which is just a judgement of the mind anyway) experiences can really help us strip down to the bare metal can't they! My father was abusive, and although we left him when I was a young child, I noticed circumstances forming throughout my childhood and teenage years that made me feel depressed and miserable. I couldn't see the point of life, and basically hated it. There we times when I conisdered that the liberation of death was far more appealling than living here.

But then the light went on, and like you, I resolved to learn from all these experiences and my 'mistakes'. Higher guidance showed me the blessing in all of the suffering and that NOTHING was ever a waste of time, as long as we accepted the lesson (or the 'gift') in it. Ahhhhw wow! Then I began to realise that everything was sent to guide us... everything was an opportunity to surrender to the truth of who we really are. Everything began to seem miraculous, and I started shed my layers of distortion, left right and centre, literally seeing the beauty in all things!

With Love
Trinity
x

Liberation wrote: " it is particularly important that you learn to forgive yourself."

Yes!!! If we can't reach into our own hearts and move through and beyond our own mistakes and errors, there isn't much chance of wholeheartedly extending compassion to anyone else. It all begins within ourselves. We cannot offer to anyone else, that which we do not have within ourselves...

Love
Trinity
x

Hi Naumai,

Great to have you on board the forum

We've been feeling a pull to connect with New Zealand in some way - maybe we were feeling you arrive on the winds!

Yes you are so right - all we really require is a (relatively) simple change of perspective in our lives. The realisation that we are the absolute; that everything we see, touch, hear, smell and feel is only an illusion; that everything we experience we chose for ourselves to self realise; we chose nothing greater than that which we can handle; if we can just let go and be the observer of ourselves, we find we stop creating ourselves as the victims in the centre of a drama and become rather the masters of this life experience.

It would be great to hear more of your experiences 'down under' (down under where I don't actually know!).

Love and best wishes

Chris

I would love to be an observer and and participant especially right now. I seem to spend alot of time in other time frames that sometimes I miss the full experience of being here right now.

A very clever friend shared with me her definitions that FEAR is a lack of understanding, PARANOIA is a fear of being trapped and STRESS is a fear of no time...

so then can BLAMING (the opposite of Forgiveness) be a fear of change.. the last one is my thought by the way.

Naumai
Koha te Uira i te ra - lightening gathers and flashes through the sky
Translation: In nature all is significant and everything has mauri (life force) and mana (character)...

Hey Turtle,

You ask great questions and spark off great discussions!

I feel like mentioning a Radio 4 program I heard (last year I think) when two unconnected men of Latin American origins (differing countries) were recounting their experiences of being tortured for months on end. Both had recouperated over the intervening years but been left with various physical scars health problems.

As I listened it was clear that one of the men had a lightness of being that was quite palpable through the airwaves, whereas the other did not (though he was still a very remarkable person). When each was asked had they forgiven their torturers the "lighter" one had no hesitation in declaring that he had. The other one had not(yet)done so.

I don't know how one has the capacity to do something of that magnitude, but it seemed to have had great benefit in this case, and I heard in the contrast between the two voices that the act of forgiveness had been the catalyst for a release and freedom of the spirit. Meanwhile a lack of forgiveness seemed to keep the second man bound to his old captors.

I know people who look at forgiveness as giving their "enemy" something and therefore to be avoided. However it is not saying what happened was OK, nor is it necessary to meet with your transgressor (he/she may be dead or not part of your life anymore), but it can be your personal release mechanism from hurt. I see it as a gift to yourself, a gift of freedom.

It seems to me that when you see your "torturer" as a powerful/strong/dominant person it makes it hard to forgive them. (When I felt like that, I was filled with hatred). If you take another look and maybe for the first time see their 'weaknesses' e.g. inner pain, fears, turmoil, addictions, hurts, etc, it may make it possible to find compassion for them, and from there to feel a sense of forgiveness for their actions.

This has been a very physical plane sort of comment, but as we kind of awaken to more of this physical plane game, the more abstract concepts mentioned in this thread and others become clearer..... Or at least that is my experience.

With love,
Lesley

I think you make a really good point Lesley, in that some see that forgiveness is actually 'giving' their enemy something..... it's seems part of that whole misconception if we hold resentment towards someone else, they will suffer and pay for their actions against us. It is just like "dinking poison ourselves and hoping that the other person will keel over and die".

"If we practice and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless."
Mahatma Gandhi

Oh so true and humourous too....