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freewill or determinism

Since the ego personality is really just an illusion - a bundle of mind made concepts, and everything just seem to happen without control within the totality, this just seems a little discouraging to a not yet very enlightened soul trying to walk the spiritual path for what little freewill he really has knowing everything is just happening to his personality and decisions seem to be completely out of his hands! Of course, I know nothing is really deterministic but neither is there seem to be any freewill, so what is the way out of this from a higher perspective?!

Thanks!

Lei

The Seagull's picture

Hi Lei...in my truth (and from the insights of quantum physics and the new biology) free will is a fundamental property of the Universe...how could it be any other way?...each sentient Being in the Universe is engaged in the primal drive to evolve and each has to do this as an individual, even though the greater good of the group will be a product of this evolution.

Also, each 'soul atom' that is a particle of what OpenHand calls separation consciousness is steadily evolving back to Source, so that Source can know/understand itself better i.e. the whole point is that Unity Consciousness/God obtains a Higher state of Being due to an independent evolution, which by definition depends on free will.

Quantum Physics and esoteric insights from the mystics for example both tell us that each possibility extending from a single moment (choice point) in time and space really exists eternally in the matrix of the Universe. This is how great seers like Nostradamus were/are able to look into the future and see possible future events unfold. However, the vision of that event as witnessed by the seer, does not mean that it will definitely happen. The vision of it is just the vision of a possibility that genuinely exists.

However, based on past events, some future possibilities are more probable than others. However, in the moment of Now (i.e. by being fully conscious i.e. present in the Now), we each, as individuals, interact with the universe through our minds and hearts (we are intrinsic to Unity consciousness) and it is in this way that we navigate through what I like to think of as the Golden Threads of Reality...the infinite possibilities for our lives. What happens is that, if we are unconscious, we are just carried along and to some extent have no free-will to change anything....we are carried downstream riding the torrents, hanging on basically for dear life not understanding why the events of our lives are unfolding as they are. This, sadly, is the way most people live their lives and how opposing consciousness would like it to stay.

However, when we become more conscious in the present moment, we are better able to navigate and we can actually allow paths to unfold for us that, even though they may be unlikely, based on the paths of the past, become our future reality....the other possibilities no longer exist (in Quantum Physics speak, the waveforms collapse), but, this is not done by efforting, it is done by Feeling...this is actually what prayer is about - an understanding of how our consciousness interacts with the mind of God (unity consciousness).

(An aside, there is another interpretation in quantum physics called the many worlds interpretation by High Everett III in which every single possibility for our lives does indeed genuinely exist in reality and that what happens is that when we make a decision we split like an amoeba and so does the entire universe and we then exist in separate disconnected parallel universes - the film sliding doors dealt with this. Intuitively, I personally don't favour this theory).

Chris has written a great article relevant to what I'm getting at

: http://www.openhandweb.org/creating_in_harmony_with_the_universe

A key section is:

"The creative intent of unity consciousness can then work through us without being distorted by our perceived inner needs and desires. The consciousness then gradually begins to work with, or rather through us."

...once this starts to happen, seemingly miraculous changes can occur in our lives and as a society...the ultimate manifestation of our free will is alignment with the divine purpose - then we have true freedom to truly explore and create at our highest potential.

Remember that the world was intent on blowing itself to smithereens in a 3rd World War, but a collective change in consciousness actually allowed a train of events to unfold that ultimately resulted in the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of communism....many considered this a miracle, but it was just the manifestation of a possibility that had a small probability (actually, maybe that is the definition of a miracle, but what I'm suggesting is that, it is built in to the rules of the universe/physics that this could happen).

Every time you make a decision in alignment with Unity Consciousness, you bring the rest of humanity with you...since all the other possibilities collapse...you make the world a better place....you have a choice, for example, about whether you get sucked in to the drama of an altercation between you and a cyclist when you're driving - as happened to me today! (and you come down to a lower vibrational state) or whether you stay at arms length and maintain your higher state of vibration.... it is a like a snowball that gains mass and can't be stopped....as the collective consciousness expands exponentially, great things happen and it is you Lei and each of us as individuals who can make such a difference. This is why it is Being and not Doing that counts first. Doing extends naturally from Being - it is built in to the fabric of the universe! Smile

Similarly, just because the future looks so bleak at the moment...climate change, wars, financial melt-down, peak oil etc etc ad nauseum it looks like we are doomed and the apocalypse is nigh, but, remember, it is basically a game to see how far spiritual evolution can be maintained in the presence of darkness...but the darkness itself is only a possibility, which can be dissipated by the light of consciousness, of pure presence.

Another guy who has written a lot on this is Gregg Braden - see his web site http://www.greggbraden.com/

Sorry, another long post from me...loving it!

Hope this helps,

Seagull

lei's picture

Hi Seagull

This is very interesting indeed!

I was spending the whole night thinking about this and could not fall asleep, I was actually reaching the same conclusion that it has to be freewill. Reading your post now is making so much sense to me!

Thanks!

Lei

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Seagull,

You make some fascinating points in your article - I was drawn particularly to two...

    "Remember that the world was intent on blowing itself to smithereens in a 3rd World War, but a collective change in consciousness actually allowed a train of events to unfold that ultimately resulted in the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of communism"

From my perspective, we are currently in World War Three!!! It is the final battle on our planet between the soul and the ego - between Benevolent Consciousness and Opposing Consciousness. To me, the collapse of the Berlin Wall was a synchronicity pointing towards that. The collective expansion of consciousness is actually bringing this all about. It is collapsing the structures of old consciousness.

You also said...

    "Every time you make a decision in alignment with Unity Consciousness, you bring the rest of humanity with you

I have to say, at the risk of pushing a couple of buttons, I fundamentally disagree with you - and I think it's important to say so.

For each and every one of us, this is a journey of SELF REALISATION. No one can realise for you except yourself. And I ask you Seagull, would you want it any other way? If I could tell you the truth, would you blindly accept it? If I could realise the truth in your own being, what would be the point of your journey? You might as well give it up and let me do it for you (except I'm not going to do that because it transgresses a natural 'law' of the universe' - and I respect you too much).

I agree, when we realise something, there is the increased possibility of someone else realising that too. But it is they that has to make the jump. I see it like placing a new chapter in the cosmic library, someone else has the chance to read it, but it is they that much reach up and take it, it is they that must reach inside and feel, it is they that must peel away the veils. No one can do that for them.

You also say...

    "Similarly, just because the future looks so bleak at the moment...climate change, wars, financial melt-down, peak oil etc etc ad nauseum it looks like we are doomed and the apocalypse is nigh, but, remember, it is basically a game to see how far spiritual evolution can be maintained in the presence of darkness...but the darkness itself is only a possibility, which can be dissipated by the light of consciousness, of pure presence"

Again, in my truth at least, this risks perpetuating another misconception which to me is limiting the group consciousness. Why? Because in my reality, climate change, wars, financial melt-down, peak oil etc are happening exactly BECAUSE of our awakening and expansion. These are POSITIVE signs. It shows the melt down of an old world mentality and consciousness. As we awaken more, these things are only going to increase. To me, it is inevitable. It is the divine design. It's actually been prophesised this way in countless spiritual texts.

I believe others have seen it this way because they also saw the collective resistance to absolute authentic reality. They saw people either living totally out of the flow, or alternatively, creating rosy illusionary realities. The more we deny the truth of the moment, the stronger the resistance to the flow becomes. The energy builds just like a Tornado. Humanity has built the conditions of the Tornado. Right now, there's little if anything we can do about it EXCEPT sit in the eye of the storm and watch it all unwind. As it inevitably will. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that.

Again, I urge everyone, let's stay in the here and now, stay in what's really real and become awesomely okay in that. Then it will all unwind of its own accord and we'll ride the wind naturally into the higher paradigm.

With much love

Chris

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Lei,

From my perspective, the real key to evolution, is to realise we're not determining anything EXCEPT when we're either denying or resisting our path.

All that really needs to happen is a change of perspective. To look inwards in every moment and realise the outer has been shaped by the inner. Then realise that it is only inner restriction that prevents our evolution.

If we keep looking inside and realise we create everything in our outer world, then whenever we get tight about something, all we really have to do, is confront our behaviours, watch the distortions and instead choose the higher truth that naturally wants to arise.

Yes it takes commitment and courage in the beginning. But then it becomes very natural like falling off a log. That's because it is ultimately inevitable the change will happen (again unless at key points we're denying the invited changes).

That's why we felt to create "Openhand Approach" which is about applying freewill to self determine. At some point on the journey, freewill then becomes self determination. Even choice disappears because there is simply no one in here choosing any more. Life simply happens - it becomes a flow of consciousness. You can find out more about the approach here...Openhand Approach

With love and blessings

Chris

lei's picture

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the response!

I find it to be extremely hard to even pin point where my confusion really is. I'll try to explain!

As you have answered to my question on the other thread- what's the motivation for spiritual awakening, I can see that awakening is really something happens naturally, and I guess so is everything else, things just happens as a natural process of unfolding, there's really no motive for anything at all. so the real question then is why should I do or be anything at all? why should I try to become awaken (or align with my beingness)? even my ego personality is just another illusion. any effort seems like an ulterior motive and yet I feel I cannot not become awaken, it's simply something already happening to me, I'm in the process of awakening. there is just this sense of everything is out of my control, if everything is out of my control, then why even bother to awaken at all? it's happening to me anyway, but if I don't bother with anything I'm just feeling impotent and not doing the best I can to realize myself and benefit the totality, and I do know I can make much great progress if I really commit to it, but then again, whether I can make this commitment seems to be beyond my control.

I do feel there is a very strong urge in me to awaken, yet I still have these questions in my heads!? is it even meaningful to get an answer for them? freewill or determinism? probably never completely one or the other! I know the ultimate answer lies in acceptance, let go of everything, submit to the will of the divine, and yet when you're trapped in the matrix and the key seems to be out of your hand, anything that happens to be awaken you seems to be an act of grace!

I do feel so grateful to have found openhand and started my discussion with you. I've already find your voice to be very powerful and helpful to me in many ways. I have started reading your book, and will surely raise more questions along the way!

Thanks!

Lei

lei's picture

Hi Chris,

"Every time you make a decision in alignment with Unity Consciousness, you bring the rest of humanity with you

I do find myself agreeing with Seagull on this one. You say that 'No one can realise for you except yourself'. But aren't we each a microcosm of the macrocosm and we are all connected? and isn't the reason that we have darkness in us is because of the shadow that exists in the whole? so when one individual become awaken to his own shadow it lightens the shadow in the collective human consciousness. Also I'm sure if people were surrounded by many awakened individuals in their immediate environment, they'd have far less fear in taking the leap into unknown.

Eckhart Tolle also mentioned in his book A New Earth that 'with each person who awakens, the momentum in the collective consciousness grows, and it becomes easier for others'.

I think that's also part of the reason I'm more optimistic of the future.

with love,

Lei

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Lei,

    "Every time you make a decision in alignment with Unity Consciousness, you bring the rest of humanity with you"

Is this something you think because you've read it and believe it? Or is it something you've processed deep within your consciousness and actually know it in every cell of your being?

You see I work in this arena. It's my life. I'm constantly working with people going through spiritual awakenings. People sit with us in groups and we actually help lift people experientially into the fifth dimension. But their own density brings them back down again. Yes indeed, when someone can see and experience the light in such a way, it can catalyse them down their path. But just as in chemistry, a catalyst does not change the outcome of the reaction, it only spurs it along.

You ask...

    "But aren't we each a microcosm of the macrocosm and we are all connected?"

The key is a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between absolute and relative truth. It's a common misconception on the journey. When people partially awaken, or go through the First Gateway of expanded awareness, they actually feel an interconnectedness with the whole of life. This comes from our at-one-ment with Unity Consciousness.

However this is only the beginning of the journey. You see we are not Unity Consciousness. We are that which is beyond Unity Consciousness - we are pure presence. The everything/nothing - the source or "Seer" as we call it at Openhand. This (to me) is absolute truth. So when people connect to Unity Consciousness they may get a sort of knowing of this absolute truth. But it tends to be filtered through relative truth - they're not coming from the absolute.

When you come from the absolute (from an enlightened state), there also comes the realisation that in order for there to be experience at all, there has to be "this" and "that" - my soul and yours for example. If we were all absolutely connected at the relative level, then there would be absolutely no difference between me and you, nor one thing and any other thing. There would be no hot and cold, no up and down, no black and white and indeed, no light and dark.

So even if duality is an illusion, duality is perceived and therefore experienced as reality. If it wasn't experienced as reality, there would be no reality!!!

    Student: master, I have reached the state of oneness, all is perfect
    Zen Master: tell me more...
    Student: I am at one with the divine, there is no duality
    Zen Master: what else?
    Student: I am....
    Zen Master: what else?
    Student: I........
    Zen Master: what else?
    Student: (no reply...dissolving into state of oneness)
    Zen Master (strikes the student hard across the face)
    Student: OOOUUUCCCHHHH!!!!!!!
    Zen Master: well who felt that then!

You say...

    "Also I'm sure if people were surrounded by many awakened individuals in their immediate environment, they'd have far less fear in taking the leap into unknown."

Again, is this a thought or a knowing? I've worked with people on the verge of suicide. If you're processing such karma, it doesn't matter how much light there is on the other side, it's still very much on the other side. Indeed, the light can sometimes be an even greater irritation to someone whose not in it. It's just as likely to push them over the edge.

But I do agree that the momentum is growing. And I do agree that on the whole, this does indeed help the whole. I've just seen enough on this journey to know that you can show someone the doorway, but it is only they who can walk through it.

Chris

The Seagull's picture

Hi Chris and Lei;

Thanks for the response Chris...

First, to say that I do agree with you on most of what you said...again, maybe I'm not explaining myself very well or there are some subtle distinctions in terminology here that are confusing the issues...would be great to sit down with you in person and chat about this stuff! Maybe one day :-)!!

You said:

"The collective expansion of consciousness is actually bringing this all about. It is collapsing the structures of old consciousness." - yes, I agree, but I also feel that it is a positive feedback loop, the more disruption the more we are invited to evolve and expand our consciousness...but I'm not convinced that my feelings of expanded consciousness are responsible for the woes outside in the world...if I have an expanded state of consciousness that is peaceful, loving and joyous should that not be mirrored in peace around me...or is it the clash between the collective ego and the collective state of Being that is causing the eruptions! I think that's what you said....!

I completely agree that it can be about nothing else but Self realisation (each sentient being is on its own path of evolution), but then you say:

"I agree, when we realise something, there is the increased possibility of someone else realising that too. But it is they that has to make the jump. I see it like placing a new chapter in the cosmic library, someone else has the chance to read it, but it is they that much reach up and take it, it is they that must reach inside and feel, it is they that must peel away the veils. No one can do that for them."

Again I agree 100%

I think what I was trying to say is what you actually said in the end..that even though the future looks bleak, this is a natural process which is, as you say:

"Because in my reality, climate change, wars, financial melt-down, peak oil etc are happening exactly BECAUSE of our awakening and expansion. These are POSITIVE signs. It shows the melt down of an old world mentality and consciousness. As we awaken more, these things are only going to increase. To me, it is inevitable. It is the divine design."

Again, I agree, which is why I am advocating not getting depressed/dis-empowered by it/about it and having some hope (though I know this is a term you're not comfortable with from the madness thread!).

But, my final question...and then I have to run for a train!

Where is prayer in all of this?

Prayer is an ancient modality of 'talking' actually through feelings to the universe. Is it wrong to pray....to visualise, to feel a better future...to go inward and see that there is peace in the world and pray peace...

Again Gregg Braden has talked a lot about this in Secrets of the Lost Mode of Prayer...his research indicated that the ancients understood the power we have to interact with the universe and bring about better outcomes in our lives and collectively..Another example would be the Shaman who prays rain...notice not prayer FOR rain...this recognises that rain is absent...the shaman visualises rain, he/she feels rain and even though there is a small possibility of rain in a drought the rain comes...because the more likely wave functions collapsed and the least likely outcome manifested itself (rain)...

My thinking is that actually aligning with the divine flow in the now is a perpetual state of prayer...but is it wrong to sit quietly and visualise and feel a better outcome...And I'm not talking about efforting and Braden has clear ideas on why visualisation alone doesn't always work...

To use an athletics analogy, I know when I ran 48.7 for 400m that I was in the zone, I had a feeling and a possibility manifested itself that at the time was highly un-likely!

I would be really interested to hear your thoughts as I know from my own personal experience that prayer works....when I get it right and that's the challenge to get it right!

With best wishes,

Seagull

lei's picture

Hi Chris,

Is this something you think because you've read it and believe it? Or is it something you've processed deep within your consciousness and actually know it in every cell of your being?

It's only something I've read and have understood intellectually, I've never had personal experiences to know if that was indeed the case. Now after reading your post I'm not sure if what I previously thought were true is actually true at all! if what you say were really true it would shatter lots of my preconceived assumptions and beliefs about reality and the future of humanity, its really kind scary! But that's also why I find it so intriguing to discuss matters with you who is actually living in a enlightened state of awareness. Really fascinating!

But I do wonder though why Eckhart Tolle mentioned that in A New Earth, maybe I misunderstood his message!?

Is there any way I can do to help lift myself into the 5th dimension? I'd really like to have a taste of what's like to be up there. I can imagine it would be an extremely catalytic experience to spur me along the path!

with love,

Lei

someone's picture

Hi, Seagull
"Because in my reality, climate change, wars, financial melt-down, peak oil etc are happening exactly BECAUSE of our awakening and expansion. These are POSITIVE signs. It shows the melt down of an old world mentality and consciousness. As we awaken more, these things are only going to increase. To me, it is inevitable. It is the divine design.""

I had this idea too, that people who align bring the energy up, increase bipolarity and thus bring disorder. But like in any reaction disordered state first must be achieved and then, when activation energy is reached, the reaction occurs.

About a prayer: I thought it will be interesting here to tell that in kabbalah a prayer is a self-trial, self-tribunal: It means that you are aware of your state --> aware of your separation, or something specific that is separating you from the source --> and then you are reaching out to align with the higher source despite it.

So it's pretty much sa in openhand approach - you are aware, you are not imposing or lying about who you are, but you are seeking to find the higher version of yourself. Each and every such state is called 'tfila' - a prayer in kabbalah.

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Seagull,

Now I see you. Now I see your karma! You said...

    "Again Gregg Braden has talked a lot about this in Secrets of the Lost Mode of Prayer...his research indicated that the ancients understood the power we have to interact with the universe and bring about better outcomes in our lives and collectively..Another example would be the Shaman who prays rain...notice not prayer FOR rain"

This 'power' goes back way before the Shamans. It goes back to ancient Lemuria when the Lemurians were able to do all kinds of activity through what you might call 'prayer'. They were able to change the weather patterns to grow crops for example. But ultimately this demonstrates clearly non-acceptance of what is. So what happens to the other side of the mountain which now no longer receives the rain that was meant for it?

I know in my truth that the key thing humanity is here to reconcile is manipulation. When we originally came here, we manipulated the planet subtly for what we thought 'good' objectives. This was our lesson to learn. We didn't learn it! Consequently our karma manifested manipulation upon us - this is the true meaning of the Law of Attraction (in my truth). Our consciousness creates those situations we need to learn from most. So we're being manipulated by an Opposing Consciousness now.

To me, authentic prayer happens as an upwelling from my soul. It is the outward expression of a powerful and natural movement within. It is not something I intend or want to do. But when it arises naturally, it has the power to move mountains.

But yes, we could intend something, a new more rosy reality, and if we all worked in unison, we could create that reality - that's how the matrix happened!!! That's why we're in this mess in the first place. That's why if we keep doing it, we'll just have to manifest an even stronger Opposing Consciousness to manipulate us just as we're trying to manipulate the Universe. This is how the fallen angels 'fell from grace'.

There is already a fifth dimensional reality. I experience it directly. It is perfect. If you hope, wish or pray for anything else, it's highly possible you'll miss what's meant to be. As Richard Bach said...

    "The 'is' has imagined it a good deal better than you or I"

And in my truth, in terms of bringing about the change, Yulia has it exactly right...

    "I had this idea too, that people who align bring the energy up, increase bipolarity and thus bring disorder. But like in any reaction disordered state first must be achieved and then, when activation energy is reached, the reaction occurs."

As we expand our consciousness we call everything of lower harmony into question. Just calling it into question is breaking it apart. So the collapse of the financial system is happening BECAUSE we're waking up. How can it be any other way? It is a totally inequitable, unjust and unsustainable system. It is not founded in higher truth. So when we see it collapsing around our ears, to me, this is positive. Very positive. It may mean discomfort yes, pain and suffering yes, but a mere fraction in comparison to what it truly means to be out of alignment.

And finally, Lei you ask...

    "Is there any way I can do to help lift myself into the 5th dimension?"

I suggest you read the book and see what resonates. If you're meant to have experiences at this stage, you most definitely will.

Chris

The Seagull's picture

Chris:

I think you finally got through to me!

This is the most concise, precise description you have provided! Thanks,

"As we expand our consciousness we call everything of lower harmony into question. Just calling it into question is breaking it apart. So the collapse of the financial system is happening BECAUSE we're waking up. How can it be any other way? It is a totally inequitable, unjust and unsustainable system. It is not founded in higher truth. So when we see it collapsing around our ears, to me, this is positive. Very positive. It may mean discomfort yes, pain and suffering yes, but a mere fraction in comparison to what it truly means to be out of alignment."

Now, I understand....it is the manifestation of a polarity which is a natural consequence of our awakening....the labour pains prior to the birth of the new Heaven and the New Earth. In "Spontaneous Evolution", Bruce Lipton makes that point too, in the context of caterpillars and metamorphosis....imagine you're a caterpillar in the midst of massive death of your cells, your belly is liquefying, you feel terrible and you know you won't last much longer, but wait....the death throes actually are not death throes at all, they are actually the first manifestations of a transformation...metamorphosis....a butterfly emerges from the case and flies away....

Thanks for the insight...
Seagull

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Lei,

I was given to come back to another point you made...

    "It's only something I've read and have understood intellectually, I've never had personal experiences to know if that was indeed the case. Now after reading your post I'm not sure if what I previously thought were true is actually true at all!"

Now you've realised something truly amazing that could carry you forwards a great way on your path: the awesome power of not knowing! In our society it is tantamount to a sin not to know. But in actual fact it is the greatest wisdom.

If you were to only speak and only share ideas when you actually knew it from within, then you would become very wise indeed and your words (when you speak) would carry great weight.

To have the courage to actually admit you don't know the way forwards, you don't know what you should do next, you don't know how you really feal... AND THEN BECOME AWESOMELY OKAY WITH THAT... is a magical realisation. When it truly lands, then ultimately, truth will flow outwards like an unstoppable stream. This happens because we end up coming from the source not the mind.

Chris

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Seagull,

You said...

    "Now, I understand....it is the manifestation of a polarity which is a natural consequence of our awakening....the labour pains prior to the birth of the new Heaven and the New Earth. In "Spontaneous Evolution", Bruce Lipton makes that point too, in the context of caterpillars and metamorphosis....imagine you're a caterpillar in the midst of massive death of your cells, your belly is liquefying, you feel terrible and you know you won't last much longer, but wait....the death throes actually are not death throes at all, they are actually the first manifestations of a transformation...metamorphosis....a butterfly emerges from the case and flies away....

Wonderful! Yes I have heard the analogy before and it is a powerful one. And do you know which part of the caterpillar liquifies last? The head! The head struggles with the rest until it is finally consumed. Then it may change and become its destiny.

Thanks for sharing

Chris

The Seagull's picture

Hi Chris....I work as an academic in a University...so, I am very familar with the concept of a liquified head (particularly when in front of 200 odd students....not always sure if it's me or them whose heads are liquefying Wink )

Seriously, thanks....I'm going to go away and meditate on all this and work on my heart-based consciousness for a while...(I should have more correctly said, allow my heart-based consciousness to continue to unfold).

With blessings and thanks,

Seagull!!

lei's picture

Hi Chris,

To have the courage to actually admit you don't know the way forwards, you don't know what you should do next, you don't know how you really feal... AND THEN BECOME AWESOMELY OKAY WITH THAT... is a magical realisation. When it truly lands, then ultimately, truth will flow outwards like an unstoppable stream. This happens because we end up coming from the source not the mind.

I know this and have experienced this. it felt like something just opened up, there's just this innate knowing. but it's a very fleeting realization always comes and goes quickly. Thanks for the reminder!

you say..

But yes, we could intend something, a new more rosy reality, and if we all worked in unison, we could create that reality - that's how the matrix happened!!! That's why we're in this mess in the first place. That's why if we keep doing it, we'll just have to manifest an even stronger Opposing Consciousness to manipulate us just as we're trying to manipulate the Universe. This is how the fallen angels 'fell from grace'.

There is already a fifth dimensional reality. I experience it directly. It is perfect. If you hope, wish or pray for anything else, it's highly possible you'll miss what's meant to be.

I find these perspectives very interesting, they're different from the ways I'm used to see. I have few questions..

If this third dimension is a matrix, then isn't the 5th dimension also a matrix projected from even higher dimensions? and what makes the 5th so perfect? why can't Opposing Consciousness exist on the 5th dimension and only exist when consciousness being projected downwards?

As we expand our consciousness we call everything of lower harmony into question. Just calling it into question is breaking it apart. So the collapse of the financial system is happening BECAUSE we're waking up. How can it be any other way? It is a totally inequitable, unjust and unsustainable system. It is not founded in higher truth. So when we see it collapsing around our ears, to me, this is positive. Very positive. It may mean discomfort yes, pain and suffering yes, but a mere fraction in comparison to what it truly means to be out of alignment.

It seems you are quite adamant that changes will come in very drastic ways and probably in very near future. But is there a degree of harmony? Yes, the drastic ending is definitely one possibility, why can't there be other possible alternate scenarios playing out in the future? For example, when more and more people become awaken and live a more harmonious life, then a more fair economic and financial system will be put into place as the outer manifestation mirrors this change in the inner state. It would not be an entirely moneyless society based entirely on unconditional love and abundance but it would still be far better and more harmonious than what we have now, and will continue to evolve and act as a transitory system before far more humans are ready for ascension. What can't that be a possibility? there are lots of people who have envisioned better futures for the planet, they may not be coming from the absolute truth but they are still visions of far higher harmony than where we are now. why can't there be a transition of some sort?

with love,

Lei

Chris Bourne's picture

:LOL:

Yes I can imagine exactly what you mean Seagull - 200 students that must be challenging!

I guess lots of possibility and practice for staying in the heart Wink

Love and blessings

Chris

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Lei,

You ask...

    "If this third dimension is a matrix, then isn't the 5th dimension also a matrix projected from even higher dimensions? and what makes the 5th so perfect? why can't Opposing Consciousness exist on the 5th dimension and only exist when consciousness being projected downwards?"

The third dimension itself is not a matrix. A matrix of conditioned thinking has been placed upon it like a mask hiding the underlying reality.

It has been created from judgment and a desire to manipulate and control. The 'fallen ones' felt they could intervene, disconnected from the divine flow and created their own reality for which mankind are the puppets. I guess you may have seen the film "The Matrix"? To me, it's a very accurate metaphor.

The path into the Fifth Dimension invites Enlightenment. In fact the Fourth Gateway into the Fifth Dimension is that of Enlightenment itself. To be enlightened means to be coming from the place of the Seer the whole time. This is pure presence flowing as a soul of experience.

To be purely present the whole time, is to have given up judgment: this is better than that, or worse than this. It is to give up control entirely - only an identity controls. So because Opposing Consciousness is controlling our current reality, it is coming from a place of judgment and manipulation. This is THEIR karma. It is karma that sits in our Fourth Dimensional body (the Casual body) and it is this that acts like ballast holding the balloon from rising into the Fifth Dimension. So in the Fifth Dimension there is no Opposing Consciousness.

Opposing Consciousness is an anomaly, non-aligned with the natural flow. It has been deceiving for thousands of years - 12,000 on this planet to be precise. I know in my truth that the Ascension of humanity is the final solution to Opposing Consciousness in our Galaxy.

You ask...

    "It seems you are quite adamant that changes will come in very drastic ways and probably in very near future. But is there a degree of harmony? Yes, the drastic ending is definitely one possibility, why can't there be other possible alternate scenarios playing out in the future? For example, when more and more people become awaken and live a more harmonious life, then a more fair economic and financial system will be put into place as the outer manifestation mirrors this change in the inner state."

What a great question! Yes indeed, there are other possibilities. Remember I have only so far spoken of the collapse of the matrix. I haven't said anything about what could happen once the matrix is gone.

I see the matrix collapsing like a progressive demolition. I see for example the very possible break up of the United States (it has already begun to wobble and fragment). I also see the break-up of the European Union. Again this has in part already begun to happen. To me, these would be positive developments. I saw all of this happening in the car crash I speak of. What I also saw is that humanity would then be forced to ditch globalised Industrial Consumerism. The monetary system would collapse completely. In its place would come local self sustaining communities with their own currencies.

In Glastonbury where I live right now, our town is what's called a "Transition Town". There are many springing up in the UK and around the world. Some already have their own local currencies. People trade products and services through a "time bank" (bartering essentially). Above all else, we grow a good deal of local food and are beginning to produce local sustainable energy.

The planet is going to be hit by a tripple whammy of climate change, financial collapse and dwindling resources. To me, these things are now unavoidable. Many people are speaking as if they can still stop the Titanic hitting the Ice Berg. But the Titanic has ALREADY HIT THE ICE BERG. We're currently sitting, waiting and wondering what's going to happen next - but that is already set in motion. It will sink, that is inevitable. What we really need to do now is start bailing out the life-boats!

And I can say to you this: even amongst all of the calamity we're going to witness just around the corner, for EVERY person that goes honestly into his heart right now, and keeps doing it, there will be a path of unfathomable harmony through it, a path of such profound grace, beauty and benevolence, it is beyond words to express...

    "It doesn’t interest me if there is one God or many gods.
    I want to know if you belong or feel abandoned,
    if you know despair or can see it in others.
    I want to know if you are prepared to live in the world
    with its harsh need to change you;
    if you can look back with firm eyes
    saying "this is where I stand."
    I want to know if you know how to melt
    into that fierce heat of living
    falling toward the centre of your longing.
    I want to know if you are willing
    to live day by day with the consequence of love
    and the bitter unwanted passion of your sure defeat.
    I have been told in that fierce embrace
    even the gods speak of God."
    David Whyte

To me, those that really survive and prosper in the times ahead, will be those that become fully fifth dimensional, the ones that truly surrender to the flow...

    The meek shall indeed inherit the earth!

This world is then set to become a testing ground for the higher plane of consciousness. And at some point, in the distant future, many thousands of years from now, I see Gaia reclaiming her full and glorious beauty in this dimension.

Chris

lei's picture

Hi Chris,

Thank you again for your informative response. it's truly eye opening to engage in this sort of discussion with you!

This is THEIR karma. It is karma that sits in our Fourth Dimensional body (the Casual body) and it is this that acts like ballast holding the balloon from rising into the Fifth Dimension. So in the Fifth Dimension there is no Opposing Consciousness.

Does this mean that the fourth dimensional opposing consciousness will also disappear once we dissolve our karma and ascend? I imagine many humans will be able to ascend but some won't, and what will happen to those souls that aren't able to make it and died during the transition? are they going to incarnate on another planet of a low vibration? but it seems they will unlikely come back here as this place will likely to have ascended by then. or is earth simply going to differentiate into two levels of consciousnesses, one higher dimensional consciousness and one lower dimensional consciousness, so that people who cling on dramas will still be able exist on a lower vibe and darker planet as I believe there will inevitably be few who are able to survive the disasters in domes, ditches and space stations etc but are not ascended.

I see the matrix collapsing like a progressive demolition. I see for example the very possible break up of the United States (it has already begun to wobble and fragment). I also see the break-up of the European Union. Again this has in part already begun to happen. To me, these would be positive developments. I saw all of this happening in the car crash I speak of. What I also saw is that humanity would then be forced to ditch globalised Industrial Consumerism. The monetary system would collapse completely. In its place would come local self sustaining communities with their own currencies.

This is really interesting! Do you have any premonitions of what might happen to China? I wonder if many big countries like China will also disintegrate, but it seems quite unlikely at least in the near future as the whole country is still pretty much spiritually asleep at the moment.

Thanks,

Lei

The Seagull's picture

Chris, you had said in another thread that you didn't see that there would be any massive changes in energy that would impact on us (or continue to impact, but perhaps at an increased rate). However NASA begs to differ apparently:

http://www.susanrennison.com/Index_News_oftheimbalance.htm

and

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/04jun_swef/

Seagull

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Lei,

You ask...

    "Does this mean that the fourth dimensional opposing consciousness will also disappear once we dissolve our karma and ascend?"

It's possible that this will happen. You can imagine humanity being its 'food source'. We emit energy when we get tight, angry, worried and fearful. They perpetuate this energy because it is that which they assimilate. Take away the supply and there's only really two choices for them left - to realign with the universal flow, or to dissolve back into the source.

I actually feel Opposing Consciousness is currently fragmenting and turning back to the light. But pockets of 'resistance' may well continue (just as in the Second World War after the fighting had ceased). I experience also being helped by this Opposing Consciousness now so it feels like some at least are processing karma in this way. But no one can say exactly how it will pan out.

You ask...

    "and what will happen to those souls that aren't able to make it and died during the transition? are they going to incarnate on another planet of a low vibration? but it seems they will unlikely come back here as this place will likely to have ascended by then."

In my knowing, there are three processes that can happen to those souls that don't ascend during this era of change. First, they can be reintegrated with the source. Second they may reincarnate as other species - perhaps one which has a more basic style of living, more grounded, feeling and less in the mental plane. There are a number of examples of this. Others will hang around as Earth Bound Souls within the 4th Dimension until they can be brought back into the light. This is currently happening all around us anyway.

I have the feeling that earth will be regenerated after a long period of 'detox'. It may well be that well organised and aware groups of humans in physical form survive the changes. That may well be possible. Within these general possibilities, no one can say for sure.

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Seagull,

Personally I feel very wary about taking any kind of guidance from NASA. Weren't they the guys that only a short while ago bombed the moon?

I sense they have quite a big part to play in the whole disinformation program which is taking place across our planet right now.

Chris

lei's picture

Hi Chris,

You can imagine humanity being its 'food source'. We emit energy when we get tight, angry, worried and fearful. They perpetuate this energy because it is that which they assimilate.

I'm not sure if I understand how exactly this works. is it like an emotional pain body wanting to feed on more pains? how do they actually assimilate the negative energy we emit?

Weren't they the guys that only a short while ago bombed the moon?

they bombed the moon! do you mean it literally?

Lei

Chris Bourne's picture

Hi Lei,

Food is energy. Your body breaks it down into a usable energy form at a particular vibrational frequency. Emotional energy is exactly the same. When you get tight, worried or angry, you radiate that out into the surrounding field. Or when you're being controlling for example.

It's just usable energy of a different, slightly higher frequency. This is the energy Opposing Consciousness rides. They are energetic entities.

Yes, NASA literally bombed the moon for the supposed purpose of gathering water (although who know's the real reason?).

Many sensitives amongst us experienced great pain when this was done. After all, the moon is a sentient being in her own right.

Chris

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