Hi Liberation,

Many greetings to you - thanks for joining the forum. You pose an interesting question.

I have studied various shamanic practices although not in great depth. For me I found the scientific explanation of the practice too limiting. For example there appeared to be little interrelation of upper, middle and lower worlds to the various levels of consciousness. Whereas in various yogic practices I found very compeling parallels with quantum theory on how the universe is configured and how subject and object are inseparable - the observer cannot be separated from what is being observed.

Having said this science tends to cause us to view the universe through the vehicle of the mind which can be tremendously limiting. Conversely the power of shamanic practices help connect people powerfully to their bodies and to nature. Indeed there is overlap also with science although you have to 'read between the lines' and draw your own conclusions.

So for example, in firewalking many people wonder and speculate how it is possible to walk on hot coals at over 500 centigrade without getting burned. It is something that is very hard to rationalise. My experience is that the beauty and the power of the art form help overcome scepticism enabling ordinary people to perform this amazingly liberating action.

Of course quantum theory explains that matter is formed from the surrounding zero point field when observed. Basically we shape matter and create our reality with our minds. If you have little doubt and fear of the outcome, you tend not to manifest the negative reality (ie the possibility of getting burned and what that means to you). At Openhand we use Shamanic and yogic/martial arts principles to help people do this and we find there is tremendous overlap between all three.

On another point, some would say many of the 'orthodox' practices like Buddhism arose out of shamanism and I have definitely seen parallels. For example in advanced yogic practices (which have parallels with Buddhism), it becomes possible to project one's consciousness to shape events according to the perceived divine plan. To me, this is very similar (if not the same) as shamanic 'shape shifting'.

I'm sure there are many more parallels but these are a few key ones I can think of right now.

Another thing to contemplate are the parallels with mystic Judaism aswell. There are many teachings in those practices that overlap with shamanism although I expect orthodox Judaism would not support the view! For example, they too speak of dematerialisation and projection of consciousness achieved by 'emptying the self' and becoming as one with creation. Fascinating isn't it?

Best wishes

Chris

Hi Liberation,

Interesting questions... After many years of spiritual unfolding, I have often found my awareness in multiple dimensions simultaneously, allowing relevant information or insight to filter back into third dimensional reality, for 'higher' purpose.

My experience of "accessing more transcendental spaces" has never arisen out of intellectual understanding, but rather open hearted surrender to finding the truth of who I am in everything that comes my way.

On the journey back to the truth of who we really are, there are both synergy and conflict in all the things you mention above. In fact the instant we attempt to verbalise, communicate, interpret any profound knowledge that we have gathered from more evolved places, it is subject to distortion.

Love and Blessings
Trin

I agree with you Trin - when we try to rationalise and verbalise spiritual practice, we are ALWAYS subject to distortion.

However I still do believe it's important to seek to understand - why?
Because the mind is very active and distorting. I believe it benefits us to use concepts and theory to create 'mental doorways' so that we many step out of thought and into true feeling.

To me, this is the true power of shamanism.

Chris

I like the idea of 'mental doorways', mainly because if the intellect is a dominating force in a person, then if that part of the person is not "on board" with the process or propositions then these resistances can greatly inhibit the potential success. So providing these doorways may be useful, as long as they are seen as just that, or even as merely parables.

Both Jungian and Shamanic traditions I believe view that people have different preferred modes of operating, e.g. thinking, sensing, feeling, and so on. So, no one approach fits all, and every one on the Path needs to find their own way of tuning in to the the truth. Certainly I feel I am quite a way off getting the right mix at present. When one does get there, I guess it will however encompass all those modalities in a great fullness.

On the issue of quantum theory and its relation to spirituality, there's an interesting audio clip on Ken Wilber's site, here , follow "Next Page" then click "Does Physics prove God". I do like what he says, in that attempting to prove theological arguments from mathematics is I believe entirely futile. His argument for more research into etheric fields does seeem absolutely sound.

Hi Liberation,

Yes I agree there are many ways to the top of the mountain, thinking, sensing and so on, and yet the view from the top is always the same. I believe, probably like you, that for each there is a unique pathway. I even heard of someone becoming enlightened by watching TV all day every day!

I like Ken Wilbur very much although sometimes he is very complex. Have you read "The essential Ken Wilbur?" It is excellent and the chapter in it called "One Taste" is a 'must' read. To be it does show that even thought alone can be a powerful pathway.

Chris

Hello Chris, Liberation, Trin and all,

So is it actually possible to get to the top of the mountain by thinking then? I realise that we are all unique and have different paths to the same source - but I personally have never reached any deep insightful spiritual knowledge by engaging in mental activity.

Looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this.

Love
Ana

For those like me with a serious interest in the scientific aspects of these matters, there's a web site A Course in Conciousness - click on the sidebar links to navigate it. I'm only part way through, but it seems excellent so far.

To give my take on Ana's question about thought, for me this particular path is important because if you are a thinker by nature or training it is important to have this intellectual part of the psyche on-side: otherwise it is very effective at resisting and invalidating potential spiritual experiences. A more intuitive person would perhaps not need such background theory.

I totally agree with you Liberation. If you work on the mental planes, there is always a tendency for the mind to discount true spiritual experience and then create the false reality that the experience never happened. To me, we need to bring the mind on board to provide doorways into experience. We often forget that consciousness acting through the mind is a spiritual experience - indeed all experience is spiritual!

Thanks also for the recommendation - I've read the website and I find concern arising within me when people speak of 'non duality'. What do they mean by this term?

Yes indeed when we discover unity consciousness, the apparent duality between the inner subject and outer object dissolves and consciousness unfolds out of us into one. Is this what is meant?

To me this is not the end of the story. We experience life in two places simultaneously - the place of the absolute and that of the relative. In truth the absolute cannot be experienced because to generate experience we need relativity. To have relativity you need 'this' and 'that'. This in turn generates definition but the absolute cannot be so defined, it cannot be limited in this way because it is 'the all of it' and what you have defined cannot be 'the all of it'.

The next best thing we can do is to have the perception of the absolute - something intangible but still ever present through our awareness.

With this state - the state of enlightement - comes the perception of a new duality. We are each being a unique expression of unity consciousness arising out of the void - the absolute. Hence duality remains.

Of course I could be being completely unfair - I have not done the course. However as they say, there are many paths to the top of the mountain even though the view from the top is the same!

Best wishes

Chris