Hi Charlie,

Great inquiry indeed. I would say that to truly answer the question, first a key 'human' tenet needs to be surrendered: that of singular truth, simplistic yes/no, right/left, up/down. To truly grasp it we have to move out of this mono-dimensional paradigm and into the paradigm of paradox.

We are being the ocean AND a wave on the ocean AT THE SAME TIME. So there's come a point where we realise we are the ocean - not just intellectually, but as a constant background experienceless experience. Then from this place arises a wave of experience which is all too easy to identify with.

But of course we don't have to die to experience this. And just because we die, in my experience at least, the dynamic still doesn't change. Although our experience of it will. It may well feel at lot less separate, our interconnectedness may feel a lot more obvious. To me that's the effect that the dense duality of physicality causes.

I'd say your cup in the ocean does still hold water, providing you relate the cup to the soul and not the bodymind.

Chris

Thanks for your answer - I'm not sure it answers my question for me - and maybe that is the answer. And that I should hold my question as a koan rather than as a question that needs a rational answer.

Indeed, there is no answer. That was exactly my point!

Charlie wrote: "When I die, I ultimately surrender my body, my brain, my thinking and the illusion of my separateness. I finally surrender the idea (and its physical manifestation) that I am separate from the ocean."

This pressumes that the physical body, brain and thoughts are that which holds you in a place of existence.

If you surrender the 'idea' separation whilst incarnated then perhaps you'll get closer to the answer you are looking for? If we have not surrendered this at our point of 'death' from the physical body, then karma will just keep recreating a physical manifestation in order to fulfill the purpose of existence itself.

Another question might be what is the purpose of existence? Why is there such a concept as separation at all?

Trinity

Hi Trinity - you say: "If we [or I] have not surrendered this at our [my] point of 'death' from the physical body, then karma will just keep recreating a physical manifestation in order to fulfill the purpose of existence itself."

Who is the 'I' that is not surrendering its physical body and being reincarnated. Since the 'I' that identifies with the physical body is an illusion, how can it reincarnate?

Hi Charlie - hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts - I know Trinity has been quite busy.

It's a really great question! For anyone reading, it would be cool to tie in with the article I just wrote on the Law of Attraction.

To me, there is no "I". Or at least the "I" is not a 'who' or a thing, it is everything and nothing simultaneously - pure presence. It is that from which everything has arisen. But here's the paradox - although every phenomenal 'thing' has arisen from the "I", the I still exists in and through all things and all things are 'made' of the "I". The "I" may be considered the zero-sum-total of all waves of consciousness flowing from and to it.

Now what appears to happening, is that the outward and inward flows are resolving themselves out continually to ever higher resolutions of harmony. As that happens though, there is 'stickiness' between opposing flows - a hiccup in the 'system' - like an eddy current forming in the stream.

Such an eddy current draws in consciousness - it is a 'con-densation'. It seems to cause the Seer to focus in a particular place and time. If you like, an 'attachment' forms in the flow. To me, this would be karma and it generates the little "I".

It's complex I know, but that's what seems to be going on to me (that fragment of the Seer which is present in the place writing this answer!).

Chris

Thank you Chris. That's helpful.

Also I found this helpful too

Indeed the video is very interesting and funny! And for me, it is also quite flawed and misleading. There is clearly for the classic dissolving out of reality by the person narrating it. What do I mean by this?

The clue is that every distortion conceals a hidden gift. So for example, if the question arises "who am I?", then it may be distorted in the way the puppet outlines, but it is then a distortion to try to get rid of the question - only an ego does that - its the most subtle form of shadow identity that I observe many eastern 'masters' are labouring under and consequently misleading people.

So at the core of the question "who am I?" is a truth - a spontaneous flow of energy. It is the questioning principle of the universe. Something has happened - the questioning principle is a natural arising working to figure out what it is. This principle is what we call the "Ray 3" at Openhand - it is a natural characteristic of the soul.

So in you this questioning energy might arise. My intuition tells me the question is not "who am I?" but "how am I feeling to be now?" The second question would be an authentic, continually self realising aspect of the soul. But the identity (mind) has then owned it and wants to know what it is. It has caught the flow into an eddy current - see what I mean?

The key to unlocking the flow once more, is when the question "who am I" arises, allow a redirection of the energy of the question to go into "how am I feeling to be now?" instead. Then focus the energy on that arising. If you keep doing this, then the tightness (the eddy current) that wants to be someone will unwind of its own accord. This would leave you to be everything/nothing but continually experiencing and manifesting beingness through the question "how am I feeling to be now?"

I trust that makes a degree of sense!

Chris

I liked the Kabir quote in your film:

All know that the drop merges into the ocean, but few know that the ocean merges into the drop.

This puts another perspective on my question about the cup (drop) and the ocean.

Yes I love that one too Charlie - it becomes especially poignant at that stage. You think it's complete, but it all begins again!

Chris

I love this video......."Just be" I am learning to do this.