Yes Trin I agree with you, God is indefinable.
Definition creates "this is this" and "that is that" but God is the absolute through all things. I believe the universe of definition (if you like, relativity) emerges out of the the void of absoluteness from within us. However, the void is beyond accurate definition because it cannot be experienced. What we get is the experience of moving into the void when we tire and let go of experience. Then we flow through experiences but the bit doing the flowing is the void within us.

Love

Chris

If God is indefinable, then God is also inexperiencable?

I see God's refection in our world of experience. I 'see' it like I would see the reflection of a mountain in a lake down below, at the foot of the mountain.

I cannot actually see this mountain itself, yet on clear days, at times of absolute stillness, I see an almost perfect reflection of the mountain. As far as my mind is concerned it is cleverly tricked into believing that it is actually the real thing.

So in my truth, all we are ever able to 'experience' of God, is God's reflection. So this would mean that the real thing will always elude us?

If God is truly inexperiencable, then we can only completely know God in the spaceless, timeless place, where we cease to experience at all.... Yet the irony is that if we cease to experience 'there' at all, then experiencing him is an impossibility.

That which we experience is actually God's reflection... but this is not God.

Profound isn't it?
In my truth, God - the absolute - is a 'non-experience' experienced as the total liberation from all experiences - yes a divine dicotomy.

Since God is absolute and therefore everything/nothing simultaneously it cannot be experienced because experience is generated by relativity - one thing experienced relative to another.

Since relativity is definition - defining 'this is this' and 'that is that' - relativity cannot yield an experience of the absolute.

Finite experience approaches infinite absoluteness at infinity where all experience ceases - this is when we move into the void - and it can be done internally where we cease to identify with experience.

So God cannot be experienced....however, we can do the next best thing. Close to infinity where experience has nearly ceased, the closeness between this and the absolute-no-experience is so close, they are effectively one and the same. They are so similar the difference is irrelevant.

So in effect, you can experience God.
So you can have your cake and eat it too!

Love

Chris

This is amazing, and oddly enough totally incomprehendable in third dimensional terms - yet we are still attempting to define it.

What I am really interested to know is who is actually realising all of this? Which part of you is actually doing the realising to bring forth this 'knowing' about this inexperiencable experience?

Hi Trin,

That's a great question! I can only offer you a belief based on what I currently experience. This is subject to change.

Basically at the highest levels of yourself, you already know everything and there is no need of realisation. However we are separated from that realisation in this dimension by our thoughts of separation. Basically our minds create the illusion that we are separate from the realisation of what we are.

Experience is caused by the apparent separation - if you like the potential difference between one state of being and a 'higher' state of being and we flow back to that higher state rather like an electric current is discharged in a battery.

So to me, as we flow back to realisation of what we are, the experience is had within the mind. Next you might add what is the mind? To me the mind is the collective consciousness of all cells within the body.

Love

Chris

I love Openhand because it is so open to any questions, mo matter how big or how difficult to put into words, and the feeling that we are all on our journey together, helping each other. At the moment I find some of the concepts being discussed a bit mind bending and there is the temptation as I'm reading to give up the struggle of trying to understand. At the same time, I know I don't have to understand, but that the part of me that was always asking the big questions about life, the universe and everything has now got a great avenue for exploring answers that stretch me rather than frustrate me with dogma or nothingness.

As Trin said, "totally incomprehensible in third dimensional terms", but I do notice a kind of "sense" of it forming more than I've ever felt before.

I feel very comfortable with the Native American concept of the Great Spirit and the Great Mystery. These amazing peoples have always known that we cannot unravel the Great Mystery of "all that is" with our minds . Their upbringing and natural way of living which connects them so deeply to the Web of Life is what the West is so starved of. I see this connection and the development of it rather than the comprehension of it as the most important thing for most people. Then we can all have the "reflection of the mountain in the lake" experiences that Trin described so eloquently.

With love, Lesley

Hi Lesley,

Yes I too greatly admire the way Native Americans connect with spirit. I've had a brief intro to Shamanism and I find it truly beautiful and inspiring. Some of the practices helped me get deeply connected.

However the mind is a devious thing! I have a powerful mind that wants to question everything I experience. On the one hand this is very powerful because I can be sure my spiritual experiences are authentic and comming from the 'right' source. I think this is really important because of so much disinformation 'out there' by so called spiritual teachers who think they know something but just end up mis leading people.

On the other hand however, when the mind is too sceptical and questioning, then it is quite easy to 'talk oneself out of' the experience in the first place. I know for example that in my youth I had some amazing spiritual experiences but my own doubt, couple with that of friends and families' caused me to doubt the validity of the experiences and they quickly became dim and distant dreams.

So I think it is very important to have scientific explainations about consciousness, what it is and how it works - that way, I find I can distract my mind just long enough to step through the doorways of true spiritual experience.

That's what I like about quite a few of the posts on this site - they are deeply questioning.

Best

James

Hi James,

It's great you felt a deep connection through shamanic work. That was the most significant and enduring feeling I had when I started firewalking, and it is said that shamanism is a great way to develop your divine connection without the requirement of any intermediary. Alleluyah to that one!

Yes I think it's important to have your "bullshit scanners" on active service at all times, but also to notice what resonates with you at any given time. I think there are many people stuck in the former mode to the exclusion of the latter, often due to the overwhelming effect of our societal "matrix" where people find the weight of opinion "against" their intuition or experience and they can't hold on to the authenticity of it.

My skepticism is mainly about accepted western modes of thinking and my belief lies with my experiences, even if I don't understand them, as that certainly doesn't invalidate them. It seems to me that science is catching up with ancient spritual beliefs such as "all life is connected," (the web of life) etc. with the work on quantum energy. As for the mind and consciousness, science probably has a long journey ahead. I agree it can be good when there is a scientific explanation for things, but unfortunately, the lack of one has often been used to deny and repress many natural experiences. Such experiences would once have been guided and counselled by tribal elders or spiritually connected parents, but those roles have been sadly lacking in our society since scientific (without spiritual) thought took its officiating position.

As for teaching, which I think is really sharing, we can only pass on our truth and endeavour to give from the heart and not from the ego.

Great to chat!
Lesley

Hi James & Lesley,

Yes I agree with both of you. The mind can be very deceiving indeed 'talking us out of' the validity of all manner of spiritual experiences - therefore in my experience, it is essential to work at the mental level to deprogram doubt and disbelief whilst at the same time ensuring that we employ the 'sharp sword of truth' to make sure we are not deluding ourselves - denial is not a river in Egypt!

That's why quantum/string theory is so exciting. I remember first being introduced to it while studying Chemistry at university. At the time, it was completely baffling - that matter can behave both as a particles and waves; that it only emerges out of the surrounding zero point field when being observed; that you cannot talk in terms of the absolute position of matter only the probability that it is in a given place at a given time; that linear time is an illusion, you can only speak in terms of space time continuum.

The lessons I learned were of course regurgitated for final exams but it wasn't until I began to have direct experiences of quantum theory that I really began to understand it - the key one being that there is no separation between what is 'in here' and what is 'out there' in other words that you can't separate the observer from what is being observed. It was then that all the other realisations began to fall into place.

So what I'm saying is that I think it is virtually impossible to grasp fully in the mind the significance of quantum theory without direct spiritual experience. It appears to me that the two are definitely converging around quantum theory. If you've not yet seen the film "What the bleep do we know?", I would strongly advise seeing it. It covers these aspects wondefully in a relatively easy to understand way.

Chris